I’d like to start by giving a warm welcome back to my wiser, older sister (well, she’s not my sister, but she feels like it), Marilyn Vetter. Marilyn and I met one another a few years ago, and our stories are so similar, it’s eerie.
In Marilyn’s first chapter in Brave Women at Work: Lessons in Confidence, she talked about the question, “Why Not Me?” to a potential promotion in her career. That question stopped me in my tracks and had me wondering if I took a moment to ask, “Why not me?” to opportunities in my life.
When Marilyn let me know what she was going to contribute another chapter to the book, Brave Women at Work: Lessons in Letting Go, I was so excited to hear a new beautiful story from her. When I read this most recent chapter, “Chasing Contentment,” I cried. She admits for all the world to see that she was a workaholic. Marilyn’s words were a mirror to me that I too am a workaholic. It’s weird to say out loud. I also admit it during our conversation. They say awareness is the first step to changing the negative pattern or habit. Well, if Marilyn can make the strides she has made in her life and work, I am confident that I can do the same.
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Why Chasing Contentment Through Overwork Is Not the Answer with Marilyn Vetter
I’d like to start by giving a warm welcome back to my wiser, older sister (well, she’s not my sister, but she feels like it), Marilyn Vetter. Marilyn and I met one another a few years ago, and our stories are so similar, it’s eerie.
In Marilyn’s first chapter in Brave Women at Work: Lessons in Confidence, she talked about the question, “Why Not Me?” to a potential promotion in her career. That question stopped me in my tracks and had me wondering if I took a moment to ask, “Why not me?” to opportunities in my life.
When Marilyn let me know what she was going to contribute another chapter to the book, Brave Women at Work: Lessons in Letting Go, I was so excited to hear a new beautiful story from her. When I read this most recent chapter, “Chasing Contentment,” I cried. She admits for all the world to see that she was a workaholic. Marilyn’s words were a mirror to me that I too am a workaholic. It’s weird to say out loud. I also admit it during our conversation. They say awareness is the first step to changing the negative pattern or habit. Well, if Marilyn can make the strides she has made in her life and work, I am confident that I can do the same.
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About Marilyn Vetter
Marilyn is a leader of teams, and a channel for innovation and talent development.
In the biopharmaceutical industry, she used her expertise in government affairs, strategic planning, market expansion, and corporate affairs as a catapult for success. Marilyn and her teams crafted initiatives in policy, market access, and corporate social responsibility that strengthened both top and bottom lines.
She has jumped through hoops, climbed ladders, and dodged bullets in the professional gymnastics required to succeed. Marilyn relies on her experience and her intuition to be an ally for dedicated professionals, from those who are at the peak of their career to those who are considering job transitions. Her call to serve has led to board service and philanthropy with organizations in the life sciences, professional development, civic engagement, and environmental conservation.
Her professional and personal worlds combine in her current role as the President and CEO of Pheasants Forever and Quail Forever, the nation’s leading organization committed to conserving upland birds and wildlife through habitat improvement. Marilyn leads the passionate 600-person team while amplifying awareness of their critical work. In her first two years there, she and her team shattered every organizational record including revenue growth, membership, restored lands, and educational outreach.
When she’s not working, Marilyn enjoys traveling, writing, hiking, and hunting with her husband Clyde and their German shorthaired pointers.
Welcome to the Brave Women at Work podcast. This is your host, Jen Pestikas. I’m so glad you’re here. Well, I’d love to start by giving a warm welcome back to my wiser older sister. Well, if you know me really well, you know I don’t have a biological sister, sadly. My guest today, Marilyn Vetter. Sure feels like my sister, Marilyn and I met one another a few years ago, and our stories are so similar, it’s eerie.
So in Marilyn’s first chapter. She decided to become an author and achieve a dream of contributing to a prior Brave Woman at Work anthology. The subtitle is Lessons in Confidence. She talked about the question of “why not me?” to a potential promotion in her career, in her first chapter. That question stopped me in my tracks and had me wondering if I took a moment to ask why not me to opportunities in my life and my career.
So when Marilyn let me know she was going to contribute another chapter to a new book, Brave Woman at Work Lessons in Letting Go. I was so excited to hear a beautiful new story from her. After all, she’s an amazing storyteller and a beautiful writer. So when I read this most recent chapter, Chasing Contentment, I actually had to read it a few times because I cried.
I cried every time I have read the chapter, and she admits in this newest chapter for all the world to see that she was, I’m gonna underscore a workaholic. Marilyn’s words were a mirror to me and are a mirror to me that I too am a workaholic. It’s weird and it feels completely naked to say out loud after all our culture, our society glorifies it. That whole hustle, culture, girl boss, all of those things have just made it in vogue or cool to overwork. I also admit my workaholism during our conversation, which is new for me. They say awareness is the first step to changing the negative pattern or habit that we have so well, if Marilyn can make the strides that she has made in her life and work, I am confident that I can do the same after all.
I recently texted Marilyn that I need all of that big sister wisdom and support, and I know that she’ll be there for me when I need her. So before we get started, let me share more about Marilyn. Marilyn Vetter is a leader of teams and a channel for innovation and talent development in the biopharmaceutical industry.
She used her expertise in government affairs, strategic planning, market expansion, and corporate affairs as a catapult for success. Marilyn and her teams crafted initiatives in policy, market access and corporate social responsibility that strengthened both top and bottom lines. She has jumped through hoops, climbed ladders, and dodge bullets in the professional gymnastics required to succeed. Marilyn relies on her experience and her intuition to be an ally for dedicated professionals from those who are at the peak of their career to those who are considering job transitions. Her call to serve has led to board service and philanthropy with organizations in the life sciences, professional development, civic engagement, and environmental conservation.
Her professional and personal worlds combined in her current role as the president and CEO of Pheasants Forever and Quail Forever the nation’s leading organization committed to conserving upland birds and wildlife through habitat improvement. Marilyn leads the passionate 600 person team while amplifying awareness of their critical work.
In her first two years there, she and her team have shattered every organizational record, including revenue growth, membership restored lands, and educational outreach. When she’s not working, Marilyn enjoys traveling, riding, hiking, and hunting with her husband Clyde and their German short haired pointers. I am confident that you’ll get something from today’s conversation, so get your favorite cup of coffee, tea or favorite beverage, and listen to this sisterly and wonderful conversation.
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The freebies are 24 career and leadership affirmations, 5 ways to managing your imposter syndrome, and most popular, getting paid 10 negotiation tips. And I have to tell you, we recently held our Thrive in 25 Women’s Leadership Conference here in the Chicagoland area. I got to speak on negotiation and wow, I wish you all could have been there because I felt so empowered, so impassioned about helping women get the pay and the benefits they so deserve. I also have to say that the 60 or so women that joined us, it was I don’t know, it was like just a beautiful life-changing experience. So if you’d like to kind of lurk around in the social interwebs, go check out, some of the photos, some of the videos, some of the connections that were made at Thrive in 25 on my LinkedIn profile under my name, Jennifer Pestikas.
As a final announcement, if you miss one of the more recent episodes of Brave Women at Work, the most recent book, Brave Women at Work: Lessons in Letting Go, just launched recently here in late June 2025 at time of recording. So please pick up your copy today and if you’re enjoying one or all of the stories of letting go and surrender and all of the books are powerful, but this one is just, it’s just, whoa. Right they just keep getting like more and more beautiful and expansive and I’m here for it. Pick up that one and leave us a review on Amazon. Alright, let’s welcome Marilyn to the show.
Welcome back, Marilyn to Brave Women at Work. How are you today?
I’m doing great.
I would tell everybody that she is keeping on with her situation, and I just want you to know, I so appreciate that you’re here.
Oh, absolutely. I wouldn’t miss it Jen, you know, we talked about it earlier that since we met in the first podcast and the book series, I’ve felt like sisters from another mother, so I definitely would not have missed this.
Oh, thank you so much. So why don’t you because it has been a minute since we’ve been together in this forum. So why don’t you tell some folks like about you anywhere you’d like to go with this? More about your background story and if there’s anything new since last time. Did you pick, I mean, I know you have a new career, but like anything else new and fun that you wanna share?
Okay. So for the folks that didn’t hear our first podcast, my, if I think mostly about work. I spent 30 years in the biopharmaceutical space working mostly in government affairs and certainly started in sales and market access. And so I really loved that environment. I loved addressing patient needs. I loved working with my colleagues and providers, but there just comes a time sometimes in careers where you have to make changes, and I came to a nonprofit at just over two years ago now, Pheasants Forever Quail Forever. I had been on their board for about seven and a half years, and the CEO is retiring at the same time. I was stepping out of my old job and several people that were familiar with the organization said, you should really think about it. You have a long history of both advocacy and leadership. So I threw my name in the hat with a couple hundred other folks and it’s really been an incredibly rewarding experience.
I’ve been here now, my two year anniversary was in February. Wow. I have just loved every minute really.
I was there when you were first interviewing and you weren’t sure, and so I’m just so excited. I’m tickled to hear that this was a real, a good call for you. Yeah, I am too. You know, you never know and I’m not gonna lie that there aren’t moments and when I see things in the pharmaceutical industry that I don’t have FOMO, and I think we’re all going to have that, you know? Yeah. As you think about your life and the stages that you’re in, when you look forward, you still sometimes look back. But being in an organization that is exclusively purpose driven is pretty darn rewarding.
So you were, you know, this is a second time authorship too for you, for Brave Women at Work. So you couldn’t stay away, you really decided to come back. So I didn’t, I don’t know this answer. So why did you decide to share on the topic of letting go, like what attracted you about this second book? Why did you decide to do it?
So it, it’s funny, when I thought about the book, it was at a time, so as, and we talk about my chapter. I try, I am trying to really diligently not take on too many things at once in my life and it was a time where I absolutely did not have time to write a chapter. Oh. And I really waffled about it, but this topic, it called me and I knew I had to write it. I just it was everything about me leaving and letting go of my past career and my work habits. Yeah. And how I was very intentional about changing my work habits going forward. That I just knew that I had to write it. Even if you guys hated it and didn’t publish it. I had to write it. I had to get it out.
Oh, wow. Okay. So that’s good for me to know. I had no idea. Some people are just like very intentional I’m gonna skip a book and then I’m gonna come back in. But I knew you had some sort of story underneath there and there was right. That they’re like, oh, I had to do this. So everyone Marilyn’s title in Brave Woman at Work Lessons in Letting Go is called Chasing Contentment. And because I’m the resident book marketer, I read all the chapters like several times so I can get a feel for who, you know, like for each of the stories, right? So as I’m helping people with some of their marketing and you admit that you were or are like, I would say were right, a workaholic and I’m gonna just admit I know I am too. And it’s not oh yeah, I’m so proud of it. Like I cried like throughout your chapter several times and so that’s why this wasn’t part of the plan, but I knew Marilyn had to come back because I was like, I wanna out myself on my own show. Like I wanna heal. Like my big sis has, right? Like where I wanna learn from your story, from things like that. So was that really difficult? Because as I read your chapter, I knew that work was a problem for me, but when I read your chapter, I’m like, whoa, like this is next level. Like you’re putting it on print. So was that a difficult realization for you to come to?
I always knew, just like you. That I was a workaholic. It was hard for me to admit that it was a weakness. That was the hardest part for me, is that by being a workaholic, I wasn’t bringing my best self to work. I wasn’t, absolutely was not bringing my best self to my family, to my marriage, to my friendships and everything else and my personal health. Everything else was second fiddle to work and that’s why I knew I had to put it in paper. I knew I was going into this role and I thought, if I don’t write it down, I could dare to do it again.
Oh my God. That just makes me like bristle up right here. Oh man. So you were afraid of your own pattern?
I was. I still, I don’t, I can’t say that I fight it as much as I used to because I’m in a habit now. It’s been three years since I left my last job, and I’ve been here about two and a third, and I have reaped the benefits of having a more balanced life. So I don’t worry that I will slip back, so to speak, but I knew that if I didn’t own it that I also couldn’t help other people either, and I, you and I are not the only two that suffer from this. We live in a nation that absolutely rewards this kind of behavior.
Yeah, so I wanna skip ahead here because you quoted a New York Times bestselling author, Arthur Brooks a couple times in your chapter, and he said workaholism is one of the nastiest and most virulent addictions he’s ever seen. I think it’s really sinister, I think it’s rewarded, I think that no one talks about it at all. So do you have any thoughts on that? You know, living as an American living in our culture? I just think it’s just as bad as it’s always been. And my only hope is that like our Gen Zs, our Millennials I’m praying for these people. I’m like, please pull me over the goal line, show me the way because like I haven’t gotten the message. And why do you think it’s so nasty and so rewarded? It’s just, it’s not it’s right there in plain sight, you know? But I’m not an alcoholic and I’m not a drug addict and so that’s so negative. But this is oh, just keep on killing yourself.
Yeah. It is so socially mainstreamed that it’s not just, okay, it’s you get promotions, you get recognized every year, in my merit review they would talk about my incredible work ethic. And when you grow up in a family like I did where work was highly valued, that was what I grew up thinking was normal. My parents were very poor farm people, they were both first generation Americans that they thought, this was, and it was their ticket out of poverty. Yes. And I understand that but there, they also did find time in their lives for joy. They spent time with their neighbors, with their families with their siblings. And while they worked hard, when they turned it off, they turned it off. And they found time for joy in their life. Because I think our world has switched to a digital age. Our work never really disappears you know, our phone right there is always there. It’s beckoning us and honestly, I think that digital connection is what has made the tether so hard to sever.
You say in your chapter, so vulnerably about your mom’s death, right? And she was a worker bee, wasn’t she? I would’ve loved to have met her. I just, I don’t know. I just imagine a spitfire she’ll just tell you how it is. So was that it? You know, we talk about, alcoholics, drug addicts, like all the addicts right there. Is there a bottom? Was it your mom’s death that like, hit that bottom? Or what was that bottom? Or that I can’t do it this way anymore? What was that moment for you?
The legacy we leave from work is valuable, but it should not be the only thing that people think about. Share on XI think it was the fact that, and I mentioned it in the chapter, was that when I went to her funeral, I was so disappointed by that everybody talked about what a workhorse she was. Yeah. And she was not afraid to work, she loved to work. And in fact, she really ruined the day when her heart started failing, that she couldn’t physically work. So farm wife, you know, you’re carrying pails of feed and buckets of water and unloading grain trucks with a shovel and hauling bales by hand. Wow. And she owned that and loved it. That was her identity. I was so disappointed ’cause I got to know her so differently. We shared a lot of things we both loved to read. We both liked to write letters and she had such a, and she was so curious, but people didn’t know that about her because they didn’t know that’s how she filled her evenings. It was by reading or asking questions and that was just, I was profoundly impacted by the fact that people didn’t know who she was outside of work. And it made me wonder is that what people will say about me someday is that damn she was a great worker. But what else? And you know, the legacy we leave from work is valuable, but it should not be the only thing that people think about.
I wouldn’t want, I didn’t want people to say she was a pretty crappy sister. She was not a very good friend, and she wasn’t. Yeah, no, seriously. Yeah. You know, I worried about that because I don’t want people to someday say yeah, you know, when I needed a, when I needed a project done, she was right there. That’s not what people talk about. Rest in peace. Rest in peace.
Okay. I am going off for a minute, but you know, now that you’ve had three years beyond, you know, have you really moved past some of these not so good work habits? What would you say people would say about you now? I’m certainly more present. I’m far more present in my life and theirs than I was three years ago.
Okay. I love that. So when you’ve been going along and I am sure there were, but I was just curious again. Were there like physical, mental, emotional signs so this is how I feel, I just actually talked to someone about this today. So there are these warning signs, like there are these lights on my car that are like going on and I just keep going nah, nah. What is wrong with me? I don’t know if you resonate with that and what were yours. Oh yeah. Check engine light soon, right? Yeah. You know, get the oil change.
I was gaining weight. I was my blood pressure. I’ve never had to take any medicine for any of my health reasons, but my blood pressure was starting to go up a bit when I’d go to the doctor. Yeah, certainly the scale was creeping up. My cholesterol was creeping up a little bit, but I just knew, I just, I was, felt depleted all the time and I wasn’t sleeping. I was absolutely not exercising, my strength was declining. Yeah. And I then you just feel like crap about yourself. Think about it when you eat bad food, which is what I was doing ’cause I was rushing through it. Hyper caffeinating myself. Dehydrating myself. Yep. Not exercising. How can you be your best self when everything inside of you is garbage and thought I could persevere? You know, and I don’t know, I just, at one point I finally said this just doesn’t work for me anymore. And as they say, what doesn’t serve you, it’s time to move on.
So when you did make that big break, that was so brave from pharma, even though you have FOMO now, sometimes that’s human nature and you took some time, you took six months off, which looking back, I almost wish for you it would’ve been a year, right? But six months is what you had. Did you find that you went through like also a grieving process of who you were into like the rebirth of who you are now?
Oh yeah. It was a lot harder than I thought it would be. The first month was, it was checking yourself into rehab. I got sleep you know, I ate better. I started working out, I didn’t check my phone all the time. Yeah. And it felt really fantastic. Wow, this is how other people feel. That was a little bit Pollyanna ’cause most people don’t get to. Yeah, take a month off and then I didn’t feel like a vacation anymore then I felt really untethered. I felt Yeah, disconnected. I don’t have kids, so I didn’t have, I started losing my identity and my purpose, which I’ve had a really connect to is that my purpose shouldn’t be my job. Yeah, it should be who I am and how I show up for other people, whether it’s at work or play, but I really struggled there for about a couple of months.
I was making excuses to be on the computer all the time. My husband would be like, whatcha doing? I’m like, oh, I’m, you know, there’s a lot of stuff I need to close out of my last job. And I was making excuses to try to find, I was like reading about pharma nonstop. I was building up my resume. I just, I could not stop just staying busy no matter what it was.
Okay. All right. I’ll report back to you in a little while. We’ll have that conversation. I have a feeling yeah ’cause it’s, it is hard to lose your identity and find something new. And you said you’re more present today and you’ve also, I guess, disassociated your identity with your work, even though you love it. So do you still have moments where you slip back or no, you’re pretty more firmly rooted in Marilyn is this, not, you know, leading this company.
I think we all have moments where we’re busy. There’s times of the year where we get super busy and I try to like, I know when those times of the year are for me and I sit with my team and say, all right, when are the months I need to be on the road? Give me an end date. Let’s get my calendar, because I know I have to actually be very intentional about it because if I don’t, then I’m gonna be busy all year. I’m going to be traveling all year, weekends, all year. I could, yeah ’cause I could, if I wanted to, I could be at some, an event I have 750 chapters in our organization. Wow. If I wanted to, I could go to 750 banquets. I could, you know, 15 state meetings, I could just go on and on. Wow. So I have to be super intentional about, I need periods where I can recharge the battery. They know that now and they’re super great about doing that, of saying, all right let’s say January, February, March, or a busy time, and we’ll really focus on that. And then there’s always gonna be travel, I’m going to have to go to DC now and then I’m going to have to go to places. That’s okay. Yeah. I just can’t be gone every week, every weekend, all the time. And so really putting intention about how do I protect myself from myself.
Oh, that is so good. And so now you have a team of people. Do they ever, say, hey, you’re slipping, or, hey, you’re going it seems like you’re traveling more than normal. Do you have anybody that like, checks you or no? You’re like, no, Jen, I’m an adult. I check myself.
I’d say both. I will there, you know, and here’s the other thing is that today’s a great example. I had a lot of stuff going on in the last couple weeks and I’ve been traveling a ton. And when people came in today and they said, how you doing? I said, I’m not gonna lie to you. I’m wiped out. I would’ve never done that before. I would’ve, no one was ever gonna see me sweat or be tired. I was the old secret per anti person commercial. I just, I wanted, I didn’t, I thought that showed weakness. Okay. And so now I’m much more cognizant of checking in with who, where my headspace is. And yes, every now and then they’ll say, you know, someone else can take that. And I’ll be like, cool, hey let’s figure out who that is. Okay. And let somebody else have that opportunity to participate in an event that I don’t. I don’t have to do all of them.
Yeah. No that’s really good. So one other thing we also have in common, so like the perfectionism, the hyper working is scarcity. So when I saw that in your chapter, I’m like, dang it, there’s another thing we have in common. So do you think that was because of your parents. I mean, ’cause we learn about the concept of scarcity and money and just everything from our family. So is that where that came from, that scarcity thinking?
Oh, absolutely. You know, my parents were quite poor and we grew up in a family where we never wanted for our basic needs. We had a house, we had simple clothes, we always had food. But most Christmases and birthdays we’d didn’t have gifts. And quite honestly, as kids, I, it didn’t really bother us. We had each other, we had a very loving environment and we, and it was a different time and it was a different place. You know, central North Dakota in the seventies and eighties was not, there weren’t a lot of wealthy people, so it really probably wasn’t so foreign for families to not have a lot of those things. But I also saw the fact that when my father died unexpectedly when he was 63 and my mother was left with debt and the inability to pay for a funeral outright and having to spend, you know, to, and then to really just have to face this fear alone. That was just seared into my brain that I did not wanna end up in that place, that I would be helpless. And man, when you, it’s a very, I hate to use the word trauma ’cause it’s overused, I think in many ways. But it was one of those experiences that just never left me. I was always worried about being without or having enough.
So I relate to that. I was a solid middle class family. My parents were both in education. My dad was a principal, my mom was a teacher for 37 years. They always were like hustling. Like we what did we do? Like we, this is legit. We would get like cans like in and put ’em in bags, you know, like when we would walk down and pick cans, basically pick bottles or whatever out of alleys, like to get cash, right? Like when that was a thing. And then we started a family business, which became like a lawn service. I mean, like hustling, you know, like definitely got the work ethic from my family. That’s cool. It is really cool. But we never sat down either, right? Yeah. So it’s just that scarcity of we may not have enough or we’ve gotta go hustle to do a little bit more. My sister-in-law, I’m gonna give her a shout out, Brooke, she always looks at my brother and I and she just laughs and she goes, what is wrong with you people like, because my brother’s the same way. He is always hustling and got some new idea or whatever. She’s like, why can’t you two sit down? And so she always is laughing about that, but it definitely has caused me to have that what if there’s not enough? Or what if I need to do more? You know, what if this, what if that, all of that thinking. So I’m just wondering if you getting to a more neutral place in your life if that scarcity thinking is tamped down a little. Or if it’s still always a little there. Because I think it’s difference. They come together, overwork and scarcity come together, but maybe they’re healing in different timelines or different paths. So I was just wondering about the scarcity thinking for you.
That has definitely been second in the journey of trying to let go of something. Yeah. And letting go of that scarcity, that fear. So yeah, it’s really fear driven a hundred percent. My financial advisor has been a big part in that of all right, let’s model it out. And he assures me all the time of, you know, unless you do crazy things when you retire someday. You should have be fine. There’s another book that actually Jen, it made me think of that I was gonna recommend to you. Yes. I actually listened to it as an audio book, but it’s called Die With Zero. Okay, we’ll put that in show notes. And it is, it’s pretty darn profound for someone who is like me that you know never enough and the premise is, okay, none of us can time your money so that we can die with zero because we don’t know right what zero is for us. But it helps us really dive into the what do I really need? And the fact that most people that have focused really hard on saving die with a lot of money left. Because I gotta worry about the kids or worry about that. But if you’ve really planned and your debts are paid and your kids are, and your kids need the experiences now, and so the premise is not that you shouldn’t, should deny your children an inheritance, it’s that you should give them the time that they need now because they wouldn’t trade that for a million dollars when they’re 65 and you are 90 and you just passed away and that you should live your life, that you should work to live your life today. While, yes, we plan for the future, we should not obsess about that.
Oh, that’s so good. So I mean, I think that’s true. I mean, my dad died when I was 18. He was 48. Doesn’t that sound young now? Oh my God, Jen. My dad died when I was 18 too. Oh, come on. Are you? Yeah. He was 63 though. Okay. But it doesn’t matter. No. This is weird. Okay, so anyway, yeah, so I was 18, my dad was 48. You know, your mom has passed. I mean, like when you’ve lost a parent or someone just so dear to you, you would just wish you could have a cup of coffee with them or just wish they could be there to chat with you and so die with zero. I will definitely think about that because while you’re multitasking or you’re overworking. You can’t really be present with the people that you think you are right, but it’s almost like you’re a meat suit and you’re like, not really there. You know what I mean? Yes. Like people are talking at you and you’re like, Uhhuh I got Uhhuh. I’m not really listening to you right now. Yeah.
Exactly yeah. It was a, it was recommended to me by a friend from the gym and it, I’m really glad I listened to it. It was a good book.
Okay, I am gonna be on that. So you mentioned something in your chapter called the Leadership Circle profile and I’m an assessment nerd. So I’ve had like people on that have done Myers-Briggs and Strengths and Enneagram and now I’m like, okay, I gotta talk about this one. So what is that assessment and why did you choose that one? And I know you’ve taken it twice, so why that one?
It actually, I’m a bit of a leadership nerd too, but particularly the assessments and this one was my favorite because all have a self-assessment part of them. But this is primarily an external assessment and it also includes a lot of written narrative from them. So the assessors have lots of opportunity to give you written feedback, and I really like the dynamics of it. There’s a lot of subcategories and including the categories, and I’m gonna read you what it says on their website says the assessment is really focused on how are my behaviors and mindset enabling or constraining my intended leadership impact and or on the business performance. So basically, how do others perceive me and how does it impact them? And because of the written narrative, it really changes because you can see all kinds of data, but once you start hearing people’s words, then it really tends to have more of an impact.
I’ll give you a good example. So the first time I took it, one of the categories is balance. Everything is rated on a scale of zero to 100 and I got a three. I read that and I was like, what? not a good number. And it was interesting, it was even more interesting when I read it seven years later when I took it the second time.
What the comments from people were of like, man, she gets an amazing amount of work done, but I wonder if she spreads herself too thin. You know, they would comment about, I don’t know if she gets enough rest. I don’t know if she takes care of herself enough, and that’s probably speaking to why would they know that I’m probably irritable. They’re probably seeing me on email at two and three in the morning. People have always commented about not so much anymore, but if I send you an email at midnight, I’m gonna get one back before morning. You know, all of those kinds of things. So seeing their words of how you show up for them and how that impacts them was really a phenomenal thing for me and that assessment, and so I’ve brought it here to my team here and, oh, cool. What I would tell people is that you need to be very mature in your leadership. It’s really hard for very new leaders to sometimes hear those things because they haven’t been established as a leader for a long period of time.
And if you are going to take it so that you can learn from it, just know that it’s a growth opportunity and all of us have opportunities to grow. So when I took it the second time, a lot of the same strengths were there. They were more, much more profound and I think that’s because I’m in a better place in my life. I’m certainly better mentally than I am. And my balance score, while it wasn’t great, it was still a 51, which is, pretty much improvement from a three. I’ll take that. Yes, definitely.
No, that’s really good. Okay, so I wanna take that one so you can just buy it off of their website or did you have to go through like a, I’ll have to look.
You know, we both know, you know, someone that takes that can give you the assessment. So I’ll remind you that afterwards. Okay. But I don’t think, I think they might have a very abbreviated version on their website. Okay. I’m not sure. Okay. Okay, that sounds good. So we’ve touched on this, but I wanted to re-dive in, so there’s this quote again from Arthur Brooks, a second quote from your chapter. But if you attain excellence and are deeply invested in it, you can feel pretty irrelevant when you inevitably fall from those heights, and that is agony. And you talked about that separation from your work, but what about the other thing we haven’t touched on? Yes, I think it’s connected, but I think it’s different is like the ego death is there is a real ego death on the other side of what you’ve gone through. And so have you buried your ego? Is it still hanging out with you? Like where are you at and how does it relate to your achievements now? Like when something big happens, like how do you react to it now? So let’s start with the ego death part.
I don't know if our ego ever dies, but it is a lot quieter and a lot less part of my life and my decision making than it used to be Share on XI don’t know if our ego ever dies, but it is a lot quieter and a lot less part of my life and my decision making than it used to be. Yeah, I would say that my ego has been largely replaced by an organization that’s focused on purpose and that my purpose in this organization is to make sure that the team has everything that they need to be able to deliver our mission in a way that our members and our donors want to see. So I think that can be accomplished anywhere in a for-profit or a not-for-profit business for sure.
I think I was too obsessed with titles and recognition. I think even on salary and income, you get really, those are those tools that measuring stick of, am I worthy? Yes. Do I have enough? Am I valid? Am I relevant? And so I think when I went through that break from my last career and this one I think that’s what I was experiencing was my ego was screaming at me saying, you need to get back on that hamster wheel. Yeah. You need to find a job back in that arena and jump right in. And I was, my body was saying, no, you can’t do it again. So there was this clash of titans of trying to who’s gonna win?
So while I don’t think anybody’s, and you know, probably my ego will never die, but it will certainly not be on my chip on my shoulder and screaming at me like it used to. I am finding much more joy in delivering joy to others, whether if showing up for friends and family or showing up for my team here that is speaking more closely to my heart than it certainly was in the past.
I hear in what you’re saying, like servant leadership, so in replacement of like your own achievements, it’s like, how can I pay it forward for my, the cause I’m with? ‘Cause you’re doing like real purpose work and your team is huge and does that make sense or does that resonate with you? Absolutely. I guess I called it the grieving, the loss of relevance and I think that’s because when we over identify our identity as work-based, that’s when we lose, that’s when we lose our focus and we lose our purpose. So while I work for an organization that’s purpose-driven, every entity, every for-profit or non-for-profit organization says it has a purpose.
And when our purpose is to work, is when I think you really go astray. So for me, while I’m still working, I see my work is to make sure that this team is developed, nurtured, that we’re building a culture where they feel they are as important as the work. One of the things that I see in nonprofits actually is that a lot of times employees feel like they get taken advantage of because people will be like you need to do what’s best for the organization because it’s purpose driven. And they’re like I don’t wanna be taken advantage of because our purpose is valuable. So am I. I think I’m much more invested here in investing in my team, and so that they feel like. My job is to make sure that they have the tools that they need and that they feel seen, valued, heard, appreciated.
Yeah. You’ve, you know, with your team when I’ve talked to you before of this is not a small team, so like at Pheasants Forever and Quail Forever. I mean, isn’t it like five to 600 people.
Yeah, we’re pushing about 650 right now. Okay. So I’m freaking out for you. So as a workaholic and as your sister from a whole other family, I just have to ask you how and you’ve mentioned it, like you’ve got your, you got your things in place, right? Your tools in place, but how have you not fallen back in? Because when I hear 650 people, I’m sure you’ve got a great team supporting you and management underneath, but I just get a little anxiety ridden. So I just wanna just have you talk about the magnitude of what you’re leading.
Jen, we talked about this. This is, remember when I’m running through O’Hare and I’m like, yeah, Jen, I need your opinion on this. I’m super worried that if I jump in that this job’s gonna own me. And it didn’t. And I’ve worked really hard to not, but I think one of the things that I reframe myself with every time I think I have to do this, I think. I catch myself, and I write it down a lot. I tell people a lot when they’re coaching others. Every time I own it, I deny someone else the ability to grow through delegation, and they’re learning a skill that I already know. So why would I take that chance away from them? So I, for someone who’s also a caretaker like you are, that is how I was able to shift my mindset was that it almost feels selfish sometimes to take the opportunity away from others. I say that the best leaders get very little sunlight, they’re the stem of the tree and not the branches and the leaves and that our job is to just stay their anchor as their foundation, but allow them to get the most sunlight i.e. recognition. And that has helped me really feel okay about not doing all the work.
I say that the best leaders get very little sunlight, they're the stem of the tree and not the branches and the leaves and that our job is to just stay their anchor as their foundation, but allow them to get the most sunlight i.e. recognition. Share on XOkay. That’s really powerful ’cause I’m always trying, I’ve had a couple people in my team, I’m like what do you wanna do? And they’ll get really quiet and then I’m like, no, really, I’m asking you. I wanna know what you wanna do and they’re like I’d really like your job eventually. And I’m like, amazing. Amazing. Because that means I’m doing something right as the stem, in your kind of metaphor, here I am the stem of this beautiful plant, but I don’t have to be shining in the sun. My job is to get you as much visibility and play as possible and to advocate you and sponsor you in the rooms you’re not in so that you can take my job.
Absolutely. And you’ve, it is a very rewarding experience to be able to do that. Yeah, I’m working on it with a couple right now, and I’m like, yes, please take my child. Here. Here you go. Take all of it. Here you go. Anyway I think that you’ve, it’s been really cool to see, from the sidelines this two years, and I’m so excited that you shared this chapter because I’m glad that you felt the need to get it out on paper because I have a feeling I’m gonna be coming back to it several times in the next few years. So thank you very much. I’ll try to help you be accountable as well. Oh, yes please do reach out. Be like, hey, how you doing over there in the corner of your state. How you doing? Okay I know it’s been a minute again, so if you have any differences, plus I know we’re also doing everybody spoiler alert, we’re doing an affirmation deck on this very question, so it’s really exciting. But I don’t know if anything’s changed. So what are one to two ways that women can be braver at work Marilyn?
I think I’ve been thinking about this one a lot. Take more chances. I think women, not all women, I think men tend to be raised to be bolder and take more chances, and I think as women we don’t take a lot of chances and we’re afraid to fail. Failing is to me, really oh, you only fail when you repeat yourself.
So I’d say that, and I would say be your own best advocate. While we wanna have allies and sponsors and mentors, yes, no one’s gonna defend us more than ourselves. And so I really encourage people that if you need something, you need to be super clear with your supervisor what you want. How they can help you get there, whether that’s tools, training, leadership, development, whatever that is, make sure it’s known because, that is the only way to get there faster.
Yeah because if you rely on others you don’t know what’s on their list. And no one can have your own back like you can. Correct for sure. Oh man, this was so good. Thank you so much for being on the show again. I wish you continued happiness and joy. I am not gonna say success ’cause I know that’s a given. I’m just gonna wish you health, happiness, and joy. So Marilyn, thank you so much for everything you do and where can women connect with you online?
So LinkedIn is probably the best place to find me. I’m also on Instagram and Facebook, but I’m much more engaged on LinkedIn. And it’s pretty easy as Marilyn Vetter, I was an early adopter like you. Yes. And so I’m very easy to find. Yes. And again, Brave Women at Work Lessons in Letting Go. It’s coming out late June, around June 24th. This will be airing right around that time. So pick up that hard co hard copy for yourself. It’s a beautiful book and very motivational and inspirational along all the author stories.
So again, Marilyn, thank you so much for being here today.
Oh, thank you, Jen.
Well, that’s a wrap on my discussion with Marilyn today. I hope you found our conversation both valuable and inspiring. As a reminder, please rate review and subscribe to the podcast in Apple Podcasts and Spotify. The show is also available on any other podcast platform you enjoy. Until next time, show up.
Chase Joy and be brave.
