Let me start by outing myself. Sometimes, I get leadership and management still confused, and I need to go back to the basics. What do I mean?

When I look back at my calendar, it is a sea of meetings. Honestly, sometimes up to 7-8 meetings a day. And let’s not even talk about the number of emails I receive. My days can go by in a blur of playing email volley rather than truly connecting with people.

And the reset? I ask myself these questions:

1. Who did I really connect with today?
2. How have I made a difference for my people today?
3. Who have I poured into?
4. How have I poured into myself?

And the truth? Some days, I’m under a mound of meetings and email. And other days, I take my own advice. This is HARD with all CAPs. And my guest, Carol Schultz, and I are here to remind you that. Not to make you feel bad, but to remind you that leadership and culture change are more than meetings and emails.

During today’s conversation with my guest Carol Schultz, we and I chatted about:

1. Reclaiming our time as a leader, and how to bust out of the email and meeting rut.
2. How to define a culture of feedback
3. What a Chief of Staff does and how they are a secret weapon for focus, strategy, and speed.
4. How do we bridge the gap with the younger and up and coming employees?
5. How leading with authenticity earns trust with employes and amplifies your influence in the organization?

I loved my conversation with Carol because she’s such a straight shooter. Also, if memory serves, there was some language flying in this conversation, so listen into this one away from little ears.

Reclaim Your Time: Why Emails and Meetings Aren’t Leadership with Carol Schultz

Let me start by outing myself. Sometimes, I get leadership and management still confused, and I need to go back to the basics. What do I mean?

When I look back at my calendar, it is a sea of meetings. Honestly, sometimes up to 7-8 meetings a day. And let’s not even talk about the number of emails I receive. My days can go by in a blur of playing email volley rather than truly connecting with people.

And the reset? I ask myself these questions:

1. Who did I really connect with today?
2. How have I made a difference for my people today?
3. Who have I poured into?
4. How have I poured into myself?

And the truth? Some days, I’m under a mound of meetings and email. And other days, I take my own advice. This is HARD with all CAPs. And my guest, Carol Schultz, and I are here to remind you that. Not to make you feel bad, but to remind you that leadership and culture change are more than meetings and emails.

During today’s conversation with my guest Carol Schultz, we and I chatted about:

1. Reclaiming our time as a leader, and how to bust out of the email and meeting rut.
2. How to define a culture of feedback
3. What a Chief of Staff does and how they are a secret weapon for focus, strategy, and speed.
4. How do we bridge the gap with the younger and up and coming employees?
5. How leading with authenticity earns trust with employes and amplifies your influence in the organization?

I loved my conversation with Carol because she’s such a straight shooter. Also, if memory serves, there was some language flying in this conversation, so listen into this one away from little ears.

Important Links

• • • • • • • • Hello@bravewomenatwork.com
              • Brave Women at Work on Apple Podcasts
              • Brave Women at Work on Spotify
              • Brave Women at Work website
              • Carol’s LinkedIn
              • Vertical Elevation Website
              • Powered by People: How Talent-Centric Organizations Master Recruitment, Retention, and Revenue (and How to Build One)

About Carol Schultz

Carol Schultz is a recognized thought leader in the business world best known for her creation of “Talent-Centric Organizations” (TCOs). She has dedicated her career to creating spaces where employees feel valued and engaged, leadership is aligned, and the bottom line is ever-growing. 

She spent three decades as a professional recruiter and executive coach, working with leaders across various industries to gain clarity in their careers, create a culture of performance for their teams, and make bold leadership moves. Her clients ranged from Seed-stage pre-IPOs to publicly traded companies in various industries.  

Years into her career, she noticed a pattern in the problems her clients were facing. CEOs had repeatedly approached her with what they thought was a “recruiting problem” or a “retention problem” because they were losing employees. However, it was revealed to be the same deeper issue every time: prioritizing money over talent.  

Carol spent years researching and formulating an approach to this systemic problem. In her best-selling book, “Powered By People”, she uncovered a path forward: talent-centricity. She coined the term TCO to describe the result of a company that undergoes the process of refocusing on its employees and aligning its talent and business strategy to improve retention, culture, and profits.  

She then designed and launched Vertical Elevation, a talent equity and leadership coaching and advisory firm dedicated to transforming companies into TCOs. To date, she and her team have helped businesses in almost every industry. Not only does she assist clients privately, but she also does speaking engagements to educate leaders collectively.  

Passionate about entrepreneurship and inspiring future founders, she also hosts the “Evolving Your Workplace Show”, a podcast where she interviews various founders about their successes and failures. 

Although Carol is originally a St. Louis native, she currently resides in Colorado. When she’s not running Vertical Elevation, she spends her free time riding her Rocky Mountain Horses, working hard in her garden, and enjoying all the outdoor activities that living in America’s playground offers. She’s a foster mom for Animal Rescue of the Rockies and is the parent of a rescued Australian Cattle Dog mix, and a small herd of rescued cats. Carol holds a BS degree from the University of Montana and an MS degree from the University of Michigan. 

Well hello Carol, welcome to Brave Women at Work, how are you today?

Hi Jen, I’m good. Very windy here where I am, but other than that I’m great.

Okay, so you’re in the Denver area, I’m in the Chicago area, I’ve got my I don’t know, 12 weeks of summer and then it’ll be back to winter again. How’s everything rolling by you, pretty good?

Yeah, it’s pretty horrible. They should be calling where I am the windy city, not Chicago. I mean we’re under a fire weather watch because of the winds. It’s horrible.

Oh, wow. I’m so sorry. I thought you were no, it’s serious. Okay.

I still can’t figure out why people keep moving here. The weather is so horrible.

Really? Now where are you from originally?

I was born and raised in St. Louis.

Oh okay, so you’re more of a midwest gal.

I am, so I have to say I got my midwest childhood training, got those good roots. Then after graduate school, I moved to North Jersey just outside of the city and I say I kind of got my adult training in the New York metro area.

Okay, so you’ve been all over.

That’s the best of both worlds. Oh yeah, I’ve lived all over the country.

Oh yeah, that’s awesome. Well okay, so let’s dive right in. So tell us a little bit more about you, we’ve talked about your movement, tell us a little bit more about your background and how you’ve gotten to where you are.

Well, I’d say I’ve always been super entrepreneurial from really a teenager. And I started and I had flailed around a little bit, my education is in health and phys ed and kinesiology. So I went that route after I got out of graduate school and really just found I was sort of a square peg in a round hole. And after getting fired from yet another job, I was sitting around by the pool all summer long looking at the want ads back when people read the want ads, right? And stumbled on some jobs for a recruiter, didn’t really know what those things were. I’d been dating a guy who turns out he was a recruiter and he said, oh I think you’d be fantastic at that.

So I interviewed with a number of companies. I could tell you more about that but it would probably take up too much time, because I look back now and think boy that was a red flag, that was a red flag, that was a red flag. And I didn’t know those things, I didn’t know anything about a red flag back in 1992, right?

Right.

And fortunately I ended up going with a firm who gave me a lot of really good training and a lot of stuff that I threw away once I got better at what I was doing and I stayed with them for nine years and then went out on my own. And so I started with them in 1992, left in January of 2002, went out on my own and started, stayed with recruiting for many years and really became a professional headhunter. Right? And eventually moved into retained search and I would say that there really are not a lot of professional headhunters left.

I think there’s those who are my age and those who are training people to be professional headhunters, right? And over the years I’d had friends say oh you should really write a book. Ugh, it’s so much angst to do that. And finally in 2022 I published a book, so just four years ago. And that began the pivot of my business away from search and into what I do now. And also in 1998 I started my coaching training.

Okay.

Yeah, back then. So I’m also a trained coach. So I had wanted to leave recruiting but I just wasn’t willing to walk away from the money just yet. I thought I’m going to have to go broke for a while. Can I actually do that? Am I committed to doing that? I mean I went through my whole inheritance to build this business.

And any regrets?

Well yeah, I mean I went through everything I had saved and then went through my whole inheritance to pivot my business because one doesn’t come up with the right idea necessarily the first time. I mean I knew where I wanted to go.

Yeah.

And I am really where I should be, but I kind of took a route that was even though going from one pivot to the next, I think there were two or three, all we really ended up doing was sort of repackaging what I was already wanting to do in a way that people were interested in buying it. And so…Did that confuse you?

No, no, it’s just something I’m thinking through. So you must have a higher risk tolerance than most, right? Because you’re willing to do that. Was there ever a point because we talk about confidence here, we talk about imposter syndrome here, so was there ever a point where you ever were tempted to go back into corporate or to say oh forget this, or you were pot committed to what you wanted to do?

I was pot committed. In fact, my wealth manager said to me one day, I hope you have a plan B, I’m like, nope. This is it.

Wow. You are sink or swim.

Thank God I’ve got a house that’s worth over twice what I paid for it. I can always sell my house and move into a shack if I need to.

So okay, that is…

But I think that’s what the best entrepreneurs end up doing, whether you’re a man or a woman. There just aren’t as many women who I think have the risk tolerance. And I’d like to see more women with this risk tolerance.

And would you say that there were any regrets or no, it sounds like you’re pretty resigned and nothing.

No. Well, I mean who has no regrets, right?

True that. Yeah, true.

I’d have to really think about what would my regrets be. I mean I think of some money that I spent on some stuff I probably shouldn’t have. And I don’t mean personal stuff, I mean business stuff. I’m thinking well in hindsight maybe I shouldn’t have spent that thirty thousand dollars. But those are just a couple little examples of that. I wish I’d come up, I wish I had this epiphany a year earlier than I did, those types of things.

But I mean the arc itself though, I don’t hear regret over the whole decision. So just because I think that’s really inspiring, that I’m going to use the word ballsiness right? That’s all I can think of, right? Is where does that come from? Did you have that as a kid? I think there’s a lesson that I want to tease out here because women don’t have that. We’re clinging to safety, me included. Or there’s a scarcity mindset, not abundance mindset. So tell me where does that come from within you if you had to answer?

That’s a really great question, Jen, and I think that it likely comes from my mom, who had four kids in her family, three women and then the boy was the baby, and they were three very strong women. They were the bosses. I will also say that’s what’s kept me out of a relationship with a man for so many years because I did not want the same relationship they had. But that’s another story, right? Being the boss of a relationship.

Yes.

I can’t do that. I’m the boss of my clients. I don’t want to be the boss of a man at home too, right?

Yes.

But I will say that seeing those strong women helped me along. My father was not what I would particularly call a strong man. I mean he at one point when I was a little girl, I don’t remember how old I was, for a very brief time went into business with somebody and they were out of it right away. He was just like yeah this isn’t going to happen. He just was not that guy. So he didn’t have that grit or maybe the stubbornness, the tenacity to stick it through. He was like this is just not going to work.

Yeah, that’s exactly right. And maybe it’s because he had at that point two kids in college and coming along later, I mean there’s any number of reasons I never asked him about any of that and now I don’t have the opportunity to do so, but yeah, I think it’s just it and I remember somebody years ago before John McCain, somebody called John McCain a maverick when he was running for president. I’m like, oh no, I was a maverick before you. I was, and it really, and I say this tongue in cheek, right? But it really was because my mom pushed me so hard in so many ways and I was a fighter.

So okay, hold on, what kind of a I mean are we talking literal on the playground fighter or what?

No, no, no. I was an emotional fighter. I just was not going to give in or let go or give up.

I thought it was fabulous. I was a trailblazer. Don't let anybody piss on your cheerios about that. Shame on them. Share on X

Okay, so this is the first time I think on the podcast, so you and I told you we were going to have some stuff in common. So I have been called a maverick a couple times in my life, but it’s in a negative connotation. I think women being called mavericks is not always good, right? Or at least that’s how I perceived it. What is your perception of being called a maverick?

I thought it was fabulous. I was a trailblazer. Don’t let anybody piss on your cheerios about that. Shame on them.

Yeah, that it was too aggressive or not in line with what the program was. That’s kind of how I was called a maverick.

Yeah, it’s you beat to your own drum.

Right, right. Yes. So you see it as a positive. I’ve always had a wavy line around the word maverick so thanks for reframing maverick for me.

Yeah, that’s how I like to look at it because there are people out there, and I’m sure there are people listening to this that this has happened to, that just want to make you feel shitty.

As women especially, your podcast who caters to women, women we have to be responsible for lifting up other women. I am sorry, we just do. Men are so great about that. I mean look all over the country and look at all the men helping other men. Right? And they’re so great at putting their hand down and helping lift somebody else up. Women have gotten better at that but are still not good at, I don’t think are anywhere near where we should be at that.

So what would you say because I want to ride on this angle here, what would be advice you would say how women can lift up other women better now?

Well first of all I think that we have to realize this is not a how do I say this so that is not so blunt. Women have to realize this is not a pissing contest.

It’s not a competition. Yeah.

It’s not a competition, exactly. And we should not have to be in fear that by helping another woman they’re going to overtake us or make us look bad.

Well actually, I will say that hurts us. So that hurts us because then we’re fragmenting and again, okay, so I want to frame this. This is not a men versus women thing. I told you before we hit record, I love my men in my life. But by women being against other women, it actually fragments our team. So it’s by design where if we don’t like one another, how can we get pay parity, how can we get the pay and benefits we deserve, how can we run businesses, how can we have more leadership opportunities, what you name it, right? So I am so behind this idea of how do we lift up other women, period. And stuff.

Yeah. We just have to do it. You and I cannot lift up every woman but every other woman that we lift up changes that woman’s life. And you have to just do it one by one.

So now you’ve inspired me for the rest of the year on this podcast because it makes me think about so it reminds me of well why I mean yes I am passionate about what I’m doing with the podcast but if I can have one woman it’s dominoes right? They just keep falling, but falling up, not down, right? That they’re all supporting one another. So with the work you do you focus on leaders. And I know it’s male female doesn’t matter, right? One of the things I found really interesting about your work as I was doing research is time. So time for me is a precious commodity. And you talk about reclaiming time as a leader. And if you’ve got some secret sauce that you can give me Carol, I’d love it right? Because I’m in corporate and have a podcast, and I’m a multi-hyphenate. So I’ve been told I have a portfolio career. This is a new term I didn’t know.

I have not heard that. Fill me in.

Okay, so a portfolio career is someone who might be in corporate, might have and it’s a multi-hyphenate, right? So they have multiple careers running concurrently?

Concurrently. So they call a portfolio, so you have a portfolio career.

Okay, yeah, right, sure, that makes I can yeah I get that now. Okay. Right? So my mom was a trailblazer because she had two jobs so apparently she had a portfolio career before it was in vogue.

Yeah, right.

And I mean I think there’s potholes and pitfalls to that, but time is a real commodity for me and probably a lot of the women, the people listening to this show. So what is your perspective on how we can reclaim our time as a leader?

So I think the lowest common denominator around that Jen is that you have to farm out work that you shouldn’t be doing yourself. Period. Stop spending your two hundred, five hundred, thousand dollar an hour time, whatever your time is worth, it’s different for everybody, doing twenty five, thirty five dollar an hour work. It’s just that simple. And if there are women entrepreneurs listening to this, the biggest and I had somebody that’s in a program that I’m in reach out to me after hearing me share something in a masterclass or something, I can’t remember what, but she and I had a long talk and she left corporate to go out and be a coach. Now she’s trained, she’s a PCC with ICF, right? She’s a trained coach. And good for her. But she doesn’t know the first thing about how to build a business. She’s doing everything herself and she’s well I don’t have any money to spend on that Carol, and I don’t have any money to spend on that. And I think then you have no business being in business for yourself. Period. I am really adamant about that. If you’ve got to have a higher level of risk or not go into your own business unless you are prepared to spend money. And I read recently and I was almost so surprised to hear this, that women by and large do not go out to get business loans like men do.

Stop spending your two hundred, five hundred, thousand dollar an hour time, whatever your time is worth, it's different for everybody, doing twenty five, thirty five dollar an hour work. It's just that simple. Share on X

Why?

I don’t know. I could assert why I think that is.

So I’ll throw out an opinion. I think it’s fear, I think it’s scarcity, and I have done this because I have failed already in one business and then relaunched a coaching business and then a marketing agency. And I have had to do all the hard knocks. So I’m newer in the entrepreneurial journey, way newer than you are. And I have had to learn by living in a scarcity mindset, I’m never really going to make money because if I’m doing every social media graphic and idea and all the things, I’m working, what is it, in the business versus on the business.

In the business versus on the business. Yeah.

Right? And I think women need to hear this just for leadership. Are you working in a managerial job, are you working in or on the business can translate to leadership. Because if you’re hiding behind operational work, and again, if you got to get some of the operation stuff done, go, you got to get the emails, you got to do the meetings, that’s corporate, right? That’s business, period. But if you are hiding behind it, you need to really think about how you’re spending your time.

I mean you’re not going to get any argument out of me. People do not think what does it mean to be an entrepreneur, what does it mean to be in business. Oh I’m just going to start a business and everything’s going to be easy. No. No it’s not. If you really if you’re unwilling to spend money on the things that are not in your genius, sphere of genius, you really I firmly believe you should not be in business. Go back to your corporate job.

Well, and that’s okay, right? So if that’s not their jam, right? But even in corporate, let’s go here for a minute. So we’ve talked about if you feel you have to do everything in an entrepreneurial journey it’s a quick path to burnout or not being in business, number one. Number two, if you’re in corporate, it also is a surefire path to burnout. But what about and I’ve been there, I was a new manager, I was a control freak, I if you want to do it right you do it yourself, which I learned quickly as I got more people, I will die. I will die if I don’t delegate. So what are your thoughts on that a manager that wants to have everything or they need to do everything? I think it’s the same path to burnout and loss.

It is. And so I will invite you to think about leadership, leadership is not just the C-suite. Individual contributors are leaders. They should be leaders. Right? They should present themselves and they should behave in a way that shows leadership.Right? So regardless of whether you’re a first-line manager, a second-line manager, a third-line manager, in the C-suite, wherever you are, I think the same rules apply.

So this is I’m very in alignment with you here. So people will say, well, I’m not a real leader, I don’t have any people underneath me. I agree with you 100% that if you are showing up at a company you can lead even if you don’t have people underneath you. Because you lead by example on how you run your little corner of the business.

That’s right.

Yeah. And it’s up to the bigger leader to direct the cultural concert or the correct, the direction of that stream. But I think it goes down to the individual. What were you going to say?

Yeah, I was doing discovery with a client recently and one of the people that I did my discovery meetings with, which is the first thing I do when I meet with a client in a new engagement, was telling me how she had some jealousy toward somebody else in the company because she had brought this other person into the company and felt the other person had surpassed her, and she didn’t really want to put herself out there anymore. And I haven’t started working with her yet, when I will start doing I mean I’ve started sort of working with her a little bit on this, but I immediately gave her a project to do that I needed done and I said, listen, I know this is how you feel, would you be amenable to doing this? I wanted her to be able to say no to me. And she goes, yeah, I’ll totally take that on. So I thought, oh very good, now look what that’s going to show everybody else in the company. She is actually willing to take some other stuff on. The whole jealousy thing I’ll work with her the next time I mean I’ll work with her, I’ll be back out there with them in two weeks. I’ll take care of that. But I think that there are a lot of people who have that attitude, why should I do any extra work, who’s going to is anybody really going to recognize me? Well, I mean maybe they will, maybe they won’t. But if you rise to the occasion, you know in your heart that you’ve done what you needed to do. And certainly if somebody goes calling for a reference for you, you’ll probably get a very good reference when you decide that you’ve had enough of this.

Yeah, and you know what? I’ve never been disappointed by the extra assignment that I took on because it’s always paved the way to something better and bigger and that hard work. However I use the Kenny Rogers The Gambler song, you need to know when to hold them and know when to walk away. And sometimes I’ve hung out a little too long at the table, right? Where I’ve been abused by the company or they’ve taken me for granted. I interviewed a man, I can’t remember her name right now, but Marshall Goldsmith and the person I had on the podcast, they wrote How Women Rise. And one of the errors on how women rise is they put their head down and hope the work speaks for itself.

Yeah, hope is not an effective strategy.

Right, so in that case, take on the assignment. But make sure you advocate for yourself and keep receipts.

That’s right. Well, yeah, and taking on an assignment is not the same thing as letting yourself be…

abused.

Yeah With too much work.

Let’s be straight.

Yeah. 

That’s distinctly different. Taking on she’s taking on one extra project that I’ve asked her to take on and she’s doing great.

That’s so good. Yeah. 

And I think it’s going to make her feel really, really good.

That’s so good. 

Because it’s going to affect everyone in the company.

So on that line, we’re kind of dancing to feedback and I think boundaries and you’re obviously a straight shooter. So talk to me about cultures of feedback, that are working, right? And I can give you I have had situa tions in companies where feedback is not direct. So it goes between, the C-suite down to the manager, it’s not direct. And I don’t know what that is. I want to give every person in some companies I’ve worked at the book Crucial Conversations or if you have other references I’ll take them. But what is it about companies and cultures that can’t have really just direct professional positive feedback? And what is feedback that works in your mind?

Yeah, that’s a really great question. So let me just explain what a culture of feedback is first. And a culture of feedback is being able to provide feedback to anyone below, to the side, or above you without fear of being thrown under a bus. Or some other negative consequence.

Psychologically safe. Right. Yeah, you got to be safe. Yep.

Right. And the reason, and in another engagement, when I and that’s one of the, I only ask seven questions in discovery. Those lead me to other questions, but I have seven specific questions I ask. And one of those questions is, what does the term culture of feedback mean to you? I want to hear what they think it is. And then, usually, they can get it partway or, maybe not at all. And then I’ll, when I describe it, I’ll ask, well, on a scale of one to ten, what do you think your company is? And everybody, I think the highest somebody gave me was a seven, which I was sort of surprised and the founder gave me a four.

The founder?

Yeah, gave me a four, that’s what he thought they were, a four on culture of feedback. And I think I would agree with him in some ways. So, the problem is that first of all, the lowest common denominator in my 34 years of working with the C-suite, and levels below that of course, is that the lowest common denominator to a company’s level of success or failure is communication. Okay, so now, how does that work within a culture of feedback? Well, that’s all about communicating, right? So it must, must, must, must, must be driven by the CEO. It’s the only person who can drive a culture of feedback. And if we’re talking in a larger company, but really any company, that CEO’s got to sit down with the C-suite first and talk to them about this is what I am committed to doing. Are you committed to doing that with the people below you and building that? Because if they’re not, they are going to I mean, we’ll, certainly want to give them coaching to find out what’s in the way first, but if somebody’s not going to work on a culture of feedback, they probably need to be gone. And that’s a huge reason people leave companies.

Is because of toxicity at those levels.

Yeah. Well, or even below those levels.

Like all levels, right?

Yeah, it’s really all levels, right? So, so, and the CEO, and hence the executive team, must give it as an example. So you do an all-hands meeting. Hi, we’re going to build this. This is what it looks like. This is what it is. I don’t expect it to be a miracle that we’re going to make that happen by tomorrow, okay? I know that’s not going to happen by tomorrow, but I am committed to working on it. The executive team is committed to working on it. We are going to keep showing this by example. And there are different ways to do that, right? We have something we call inner circle meets. And I recommend that the CEO, depending on the size of the company, could be the executive team, meets with four to five people below them, no leaders, only individual contributors, once a month, go out to lunch, go out for drinks, whatever that looks like and just engage everybody in a conversation from different departments.

And no one’s afraid because it’s…

Well, they might be afraid. But eventually, people are going to get that they’re not, again, they’re not going to have negative repercussions about this. You have to show people that you are committed to getting the feedback. I’m committed to the feedback. Why? Because if I don’t get the feedback, positive and negative, how am I going to make my company any better? How can I improve it?

Okay. Yeah. No, I think that… 

And when people start talking about communication is a soft skill, I want to just punch them in the face. I mean, really, it is so important. Stop it. It’s not a soft skill. I’m sorry. And we have to teach people how to communicate. Because people don’t know how to effectively communicate. They don’t know the most effective words to use. They use judgy words. Because they just don’t, it’s living in a blind spot for them. So, I have to talk to people about use of language and how they use language and, and when I can start seeing the light bulb go on around how people use language, it’s a beautiful thing.

Okay, so I yes, definitely want to even after this want to talk to you about culture of feedback. So let’s keep going. So Chief of Staff, right? I’m thinking of the US government, right, the Chief of Staff. But what does a Chief of Staff mean to you? And is it HR or what does it mean to you?

Not in a million years is it HR. Though, I will say I’ve seen some Chiefs of Staff move from HR.

So what is a Chief of Staff then?

Chief of Staff, so the Chief of Staff is the partner to, the force multiplier of the CEO. Okay?

So it’s the force, I’m highlighting this. It’s a force multiplier of the CEO. What is the job, I heard it high level. Tell me examples of what the Chief of Staff would do.

Right. So, it depends… so I will answer your question, but it depends. It depends on the type of Chief of Staff. Like I say, there’s three levels of Chiefs of Staff.

Okay.

Right, there’s a level one Chief of Staff, which is somebody who’s maybe been an executive assistant and then moved into a Chief of Staff role. Who’s kind of a lower level Chief of Staff, maybe does some special projects and, to help the CEO out, or could be even considered a glorified executive assistant. Then there’s the level two, which takes on more work, and a level three, which takes on even more work. So, the objective, especially for a higher level Chief of Staff, but really for all Chiefs of Staff, is to handle things in such a way that the CEO isn’t bogged down inside the business.

Got it. Okay, yep.

Right? So, when I go in as an organizational strategist, I put all these structures and frameworks into place that even most high-level Chiefs of Staff can’t do because of the experience I’ve had over 34 years. Right? And I always say, as a professional headhunter for 30 years, I’d like to think I saw every mistake a founder and a CEO can make. Although that’s probably a little bit, too bold to say, but I’ve probably seen practically any mistake anybody can make. And they make ridiculous mistakes.

Well, I mean, we’re all human, right? So…

Right, of course, of course. So, between that and the coaching experience that I have, hearing people and working in the C-suite, I’ve just, sometimes, when you look at it from the outside, you’re, what were you guys thinking? About this.

So when I heard Chief of Staff, I’m thinking C-suite, but it’s not C-suite. So it’s not the COO, it’s not the CFO, it’s…

Correct. That is correct.

It is the right hand of the CEO.

Right. So let me paint you a picture.

Okay.

You’ve got the CEO, you’ve got the executive team, and you’ve got the Chief of Staff that’s really right below or to the side of the CEO. So the Chief of Staff, the well-trained Chief of Staff, will handle most meetings so the CEO doesn’t ever have to go.

Whoa.

With the executive team, yeah. Right. So although I don’t consider myself a Chief of Staff, as I said, I consider myself an organizational strategist. I go into companies as that right hand of the CEO to handle all this stuff. I mean, I’m involved in a project right now where I talk to the CEO maybe once a week and he’s, how’s it going? Right? He’s awesome. He’s thrilled. His my objective is to give him 10% working in the business so he can just build his company.

So their job…

And then I will backfill myself with a Chief of Staff. Probably a fractional for him.

Yeah, so their job is to get the CEO out of the operational, the weeds, so they can dream, build, strategize.

That’s correct. Different than a COO, which is really responsible for the operations of the company. The Chief of Staff is responsible for the operations of the CEO.

Okay, the operations of the CEO.

Yeah. That’s yeah. And then they’re the bridge between the CEO and the executive team.

Got it. Okay. Got it. Okay, so that helps me. So when I keep thinking Chief of Staff now, it’s higher than an exec admin. It can be, but it’s higher.

It is. That’s what I say, I’ve seen where, in fact, we’re actually running a survey right now that I’m sending out to a number of Chiefs of Staff every week, probably going to do it for another three or four weeks, and it’s been interesting as I’ve been looking at the backgrounds of people, how many of them have gone from either they’re in their first Chief of Staff role coming right out of school, which tells me they’re probably just a glorified assistant, to help, maybe a paper pusher, to help the CEO. Or they’ve moved, they were an EA and then they moved into the Chief of Staff role. That’s a very common way to do it. Or you take people, or, and I’ve seen some who were a CFO and then the Chief of Staff for the CEO. So those are the higher level Chiefs of Staff. So what I say typically to CEOs, I had somebody reach out to me recently who said he was looking for a Chief of Staff, I was the second call he made. He called a company that I said, have you called, so-and-so? And he said, yeah, I have. I said, so here’s the difference, they’re just a recruiting firm for chiefs, virtual chiefs. That’s all they do. I said, could I find you, go out and just find you a Chief of Staff and do that search? Yeah, I can, but I wouldn’t recommend it. And here’s why. Because when I walk into a company and put my, what I call the organizational scaffold system, which is a temporary system, right? I put these frameworks and structures in place, I’m there temporarily for usually from three to six months. What I do covers about 80% ish of what the company and the CEO needs. The other 20% is in a blind spot that I don’t know when I take on the project, and the CEO doesn’t know when I take on the project. And I start to learn it in discovery. And I’m, oh so this company, not only do they not have an org chart, they don’t have standard operating procedures, they don’t have, any kind of a, HR new employee handbook.

Are these small to mid companies that…So they’re small to mid companies.

Yeah. I stay in the SMB space.

Okay, so I don’t want to insult by any means, but I almost see you… this is so funny. So please take this in the most positive way.

So I shouldn’t just hang up on you if you piss me off.

No please please don’t, you can just give me direct feedback right. I feel like you’re almost like a, you’re a ninja Mary Poppins.

Ninja Mary Poppins

You know, that comes in…And you find all the blind spots, and when I hear scaffolding, you’re kind of propping the business up as you’re uncovering all of the spots and you’re putting it back together again before you move on. Is that fair?

Yeah. Yeah, that’s absolutely fair. I wouldn’t take that as a negative at all. I don’t remember what Mary Poppins’ deal was, it’s been so long since I’ve watched a Mary Poppins film other than watching her fly around on her umbrella.

Well she’s, no, so the thing about, well, you’re more of um, so, badass than, you know…

Probably not as nice as she was.

No, that’s why ninja. You got ninja badass in there. And then you come in with all the tricks, right? The carpet bag that Mary Poppins, she just has a little bit of magic to her, right? Where she has the experience and the magic and she’s taking care of kids, you just take care of businesses, right? So you come in and you’re, wow, we need a spoonful of sugar and have the medicine go down, right? With your HR handbook or you have no policies or whatever, you have no culture or you don’t know how to communicate or whatever, right? So it sounds very similar to you rehab businesses.

Yeah, I mean, I often, by the time I get a call from somebody, they’re at their wit’s end. I’m, like, dude, why’d you wait this long?

Okay. That makes total sense. And thank you for explaining the Chief of Staff. And one of the other things that I saw in your work is the bridging of the gap, right? Where you probably have all ages, stages of careers. What is your thought on the up and coming employee, right? Very different than probably other generations, but what is your philosophy on trying to bring them in and groom the next generation?

Yeah, that’s also a really great question. I think the most important thing, and this is what I, I’m real preachy about this, is that it’s super important when you bring somebody into a company, if you’re the leader of, this person, you have to ask them what they need from you to be successful. Like I did that when I hired my Chief of Staff I don’t know, three, four years ago. How would you like us to work together? She’s two years from Gen Z, she’s a millennial. And she’s amazing, amazing. And she made a suggestion and I was, I don’t know if that’s gonna work for me, and we found out in fairly short order that kind of communication did not work. And because, she is at the age where she likes texts. I’m not a big texter. So how we compromised, so that it worked for both of us, was we would send voice memos. So you get tone, and you get language, because the reality is in the written word, whether it be text, I think it’s worse by text, whether it’s by text or by email, over 50% of receivers misinterpret or misunderstand the messaging.

I agree with that.

Over 50%. Now, why would anybody want to risk that? That makes no sense to me. I mean, people get pissed off, they think that you’re being an asshole, and you’re really not. I mean…

Yeah, it’s happened to me, for sure, yeah.

Right. Of course. I’m sure it’s happened to everyone listening to this, right? So, we went to voice memos, and then, on the days, this doesn’t happen all the time, but then we do have days where there’s a lot of voice memos, we immediately get on the phone.

Because it’s just too much.

It’s too much, I can’t and my brain starts smoking. I’m, wait, which message was it you just sent me seven? I’m not going to go back and listen to all those. And she knows that. So, she’ll just, sometimes she’ll just pick up, she’ll just call me and say, all right, I figured I was not going to blow up your phone any more than I already did it today. And that’s worked really, really well for us. Right? So, the moral of the story is you need to ask your employees, what do you need from me to be the best you you can be? How would you like me to communicate with you? Now, you’re not going to get everything you want, all the time. And it’s important for people to know that. And you work through it. And I think as long as people see there’s effort being made to work through things, they’ll be pretty patient with you.

And I think the one thing to what you said, and I actually asked all my employees that question. So we’re again, aligned. Is that everybody listening, I promise I did not know these things before we got on the phone. But I asked these questions, or that question, but then there is something to be said, if people can tell, it’s sharks with blood in the water. If I’m really, really listening for the answer and care and empathetically am really watching them and then doing something about it. So if I voice text, then don’t send me an email. Or if I like calls, then call me. Or I had an employee once say to me when I asked her, how is the communication and what do you need to be successful and all this stuff, and she’s, I need more practice time to do things. Because when you give me direction, it’s you’re Mario Andretti, you’re driving without tires. I, you know, and she actually gave me that metaphor. And I’m, oh and I didn’t take it personally.

No.

And then I literally was, well thanks so much for that feedback, I didn’t realize I’m kind of Mario running without tires or you don’t give you enough time on the pit stop. And then I gave her more time on the pit stop. And now it’s so much better because I really listened and then did something about it.

Yeah, there is no shortage of importance of being present and listening.

Yes. 

Super, uber important.

Yes. So it’s knowing how to talk and then knowing how to not talk.

Well, I mean, I would take it a step further. I mean, not talking could be hearing, and hearing is not the same as listening.

Oh, that’s true. Right.

Distinctly different. When you’re truly listening, you are intentional.

That’s true. 

Intentional. There’s the difference. When you’re hearing, you’re not intentional, you’re just hearing.

Yes.

I had a conversation, I was having a conversation with my boyfriend over the weekend, and he’s looking at his phone, and I’m talking to him about something and I wanted to just slap him. I said, did you hear what I just said? And he repeated back to me exactly what I said, I said, how are you looking at your phone and you could hear that? He has a knack for that, but usually he’s not looking at his phone when we’re talking about stuff like that, he’s really actually quite good at putting his phone down and you know being totally present when we’re together, yeah.

Yeah, no, that’s a good distinction. So this is a buzzword but I wanted to as we’re kind of wrapping up here, wanted to get your thoughts on the buzzword authenticity. And again, I think this is tangential to what we just said, I think that people can tell if you’re just speaking platitudes or the corporate line. I’ve had people tell me, okay, and again I’m not a therapist, I am a coach, but people come to me and tell me stuff that is, what? I mean, people, and I’m, why are we talking about this? It’s because I’ve built trust with them.

Yes.

It’s because they know that I’m legit. That I’m really authentic. And that I don’t, I always tell my people, even though I may sit across a desk right, as I’m making that motion, they always know that I’ve got their back. And I demonstrate it all the time. And then I’m almost sitting side by side. Like we’re teammates even though, if I’ve got to give you feedback, they respect that too so that I can move seats in the power seats in the table. But they know that they can trust me.

That’s right.

And I don’t know if this is a novel thing, I mean, I just feel really blessed that I’ve learned how to do this. But I don’t think that everybody can do that and lead with authenticity. So what are your comments on that?

Oh yeah, well I’ve got plenty to say about that. But let me tell you a story first. So, back when I was a headhunter, and I heard this more than once, and I quote, Carol, I’ve told you things I’ve never told a recruiter before.

See?

Now that’s a big effing deal when somebody says that to a headhunter. I mean that’s a big deal because nobody trusts headhunters.

No.

And I would always thank them, because that’s a huge acknowledgment, and then tell them why that was. And here’s why that was. Because I’m actually genuinely interested in you as a human being and if you are genuinely interested in people, they know you’re not blowing sunshine up their skirt, for one thing. And for another thing, they know you’re not asking questions in order to manipulate information out of them to use against them in some way, shape, or form. And if people can feel that, which is what you just described…If people can feel that, they will open up to you and tell you things. And for me, it’s always been, look, man, if you’re afraid to talk to me and open up to me when I do discovery meetings, right? I had a recent client who I interviewed eight people, and two of them held back a little bit. Now I think that’s going to change as we continue to work together. But, they’re the way they are for a particular reason, I don’t know what that reason is at this point, and I don’t really care at this point, but, my objective is to work with them and get them to open up. Because if they can’t open up to me, I can’t help them with whatever their issues are.

I agree with that.

Right. And again, I’m not a therapist, I’m just a trained coach. So I listen, listen with intent. And that’s where the authenticity comes in, that’s where the vulnerability comes in. I tell stories in my discovery meetings. Stories about my own stupidity or whatever. Right, of course.

Yeah, because if you come in as the paid consultant, they automatically feel like you’re the enemy. And you’ve got to break that down quickly, because you aren’t going to get to the crux of the issue if they think you’re the enemy.

And I always ask, do you know why I’m here? 

What’s the answer that they give?

It could be different. Well I think I know that you’re here to help the company, and, put some, whatever it might be, and some might say I’m really not sure. And I tell them. Well, here’s what happened. Your managing partner heard me on a podcast and picked up the phone and called me. Right?

That’s very interesting. 

Or whatever, however somebody found me, you know. So…

Well the bottom line is, be real, be authentic, tell stories. Be self-deprecating and humble, I think that, just be human, right? don’t sit on high, make them feel like they’re working with you and not just for you.

That’s right. When you, when you can tell stories that do not make you look particularly good, people will start to think about that, wow, that’s nice, they’re really honest about that.

You know it’s really interesting you say that because my husband, my friends because I’ve written quite a few books a women’s anthology books on different topics. And when I started the series, my friends, family, husband, everyone was, why are you sharing so much dirty laundry? And you and I really have this in common because we’re very straight shooters, you and I, I can tell. And I just, well first of all, I don’t care, that’s the first part. And the second is, I knew somewhere deep down that if I could make a difference in one woman’s life, that I did my job. And I think that I knew my stories of mistakes or loss or whatever were going to help people and that’s all I really cared about. And that’s what I still use even in when I’m in my corporate work or I’m in this work. I mean it really it’s not about sharing just airing the dirty laundry, it’s just being showing humanity.

Well, and the problem is that we all want to look good. And I don’t mean physically look good, right? I mean we all want to look good, right? Oh no, I don’t make any mistakes. Of course you do, everybody does. So when you can be authentic and vulnerable about your stupidity, or whatever that is, people are, oh, well they’re kind of like me, I have that problem too or, you know…

They’re relatable.

Yeah, they’re relatable, exactly. And when people can relate to you, that makes a huge difference in how they how everything, they respond to you. And that’s where that’s, again, going back, stepping back to a culture of feedback, that’s the importance of a culture of feedback also. To be able to, if a CEO can talk about, some stupid thing he or she did, and how that really damaged their business or whatever, people will think, oh, well they’re, I’ve kind of been looking at them way up here on a pedestal, maybe they’re not, now they’re more, there’s more humanity to them that I can see now.

Yeah, and people want to work for the humanity. They don’t want to work for a talking head.

I agree. And oh by the way, this is going to come about and I’m already starting to see it come about more and more as AI rears its ugly head.

What do you mean?

Well, AI is a machine, it’s not a human.

Well that’s what’s gonna lack humanity.

And it doesn’t have humanity. And I don’t believe that, I mean maybe sometime it will have humanities it learns, as it learns more, but I think often a lot of these AIs are just trained to tell people what they want to hear. Oh, you’re so brilliant and I’ve heard a million stories like that and I’m like, oy vey.

Oh I’ve tested it. It definitely is on the Pollyanna side of you’re amazing, right? Which is going to create these weird, it’s a whole other podcast but…

Right, well you’re right, it is. And I always push back on my to my AI when I’m using it.

I think you can, by the way everyone, I think you can also look into this where I haven’t done it yet, where you can train it not to be as Pollyanna or self-serving or I mean you can code it or train it to not do that. But still, it’s a little scary. And it also shows that leadership, humanity and human leadership is more important than ever. I guess we’ll end cap there and whole other podcast. So rounding us out, what do you believe and we’ve given a lot of examples, but what would you say the top two are of the two ways women can be braver at work today?

To ask for what you deserve. Like just, it’s so scary. You can be in a meeting with five men and five women and the leader says, okay, I need a volunteer who can do these ten things. Every man who has four or five of the ten will raise his hand. Probably no women will. Oh, I only have eight out of the ten, I guess I can’t raise my hand to do it.

That’s actually a studied fact. Yeah.

Being inside your head is like being behind enemy lines. Share on X

Right. Right, right, right. So, women, you’ve just, stop, first of all, one of my great coaches said to me, and I will leave everyone with this, that being inside your head is like being behind enemy lines.

Oh, that’s interesting.

Right? So when you’re so, when the women aren’t raising their hand because they only have seven or eight out of the ten, they’re inside their head saying, oh I can’t do that. I don’t have all ten things. So stop listening to that voice, tell it thank you very much for your opinion, now shut the F up and go away, and then just be there, and you’ve got to push yourself to do that.

Yeah, it’s not an imposter.

It just may not be natural for many women to do that. 

Yeah. 

But once you, do it the first time, oh that wasn’t so horrible. I can try that again.

Okay, so the I would say ask for what you want and push past enemy lines is what I heard.

Well yeah, stop listening to the voice inside your own head. It’s giving you all this negative nonsense. Why can’t I do it, and I can’t do it, and I shouldn’t do it, and people are going to think I’m stupid, I won’t look good, whatever your whatever the crap it’s saying. Yeah.

So let’s let everyone know where they can connect with you for and I love, I’ve loved our straight talk. All of your business. So give me all the links and then we’ll link everything in the show notes.

Yeah. So certainly people can connect with me on LinkedIn. But don’t just connect with me with no message, because I will not accept it. So if you want to connect with me on LinkedIn say hey, I heard you on Brave Women at Work, love to connect. Then I will connect with you, okay? And or you can go to my website, verticalelevation.com. There’s all the information about me, my company, you can schedule a call with me if you want to schedule a call… like, you know. All the stuff is there.

All the stuff is there. Okay well Carol this was really fun and it’s not often where I get someone as straight talking as me and so thank you.

My pleasure. 

Thank you. It’s been a blast. So thank you so much.

Well that’s a wrap on my discussion with Carol today. I hope you found our conversation both valuable and inspiring.

As a reminder, please rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast in Apple Podcasts and Spotify. The show is also available on any other podcast platform you enjoy.

Until next time, show up. Lead outside emails and meetings and be brave.