Well, I have been schooled in the best way. I learned something so valuable during my conversation with my guest, Nicole Pulliam.
You know how everyone (including me) has referenced Imposter Syndrome as well, a syndrome? What if the original researchers on the topic never intended for it to be called that? What if it was really called Imposter Phenomenon. We could do a whole podcast on why it was changed from phenomenon to syndrome, but the gist is that with a syndrome, we can tend to blame ourselves and think we are inherently wrong or bad. With imposter phenomenon, we take the imposter outside of ourselves and into the environment. What in the environment triggered us to feel like an imposter? And what can we do about it?
During our podcast, Nicole and I chatted about:
- The backstory behind her work with her company, Real and Worthy
- What imposter phenomenon is, and how it is different than Imposter Syndrome
- What does it mean to lead in a system that wasn’t built for you? And how is this especially difficult for women of color?
- What is the Worthy Leadership Framework?
- The “I am worthy of” prompt
If you have beat yourself up regarding Imposter Syndrome, flip your brain inside out in the best way possible with today’s show.
Leading in a System That Wasn’t Built for You with Nicole Pulliam
Well, I have been schooled in the best way. I learned something so valuable during my conversation with my guest, Nicole Pulliam.
You know how everyone (including me) has referenced Imposter Syndrome as well, a syndrome? What if the original researchers on the topic never intended for it to be called that? What if it was really called Imposter Phenomenon. We could do a whole podcast on why it was changed from phenomenon to syndrome, but the gist is that with a syndrome, we can tend to blame ourselves and think we are inherently wrong or bad. With imposter phenomenon, we take the imposter outside of ourselves and into the environment. What in the environment triggered us to feel like an imposter? And what can we do about it?
During our podcast, Nicole and I chatted about:
- The backstory behind her work with her company, Real and Worthy
- What imposter phenomenon is, and how it is different than Imposter Syndrome
- What does it mean to lead in a system that wasn’t built for you? And how is this especially difficult for women of color?
- What is the Worthy Leadership Framework?
- The “I am worthy of” prompt
If you have beat yourself up regarding Imposter Syndrome, flip your brain inside out in the best way possible with today’s show.
Important Links
About Nicole Pulliam
Nicole Pulliam is a first-generation trailblazer, a tenured professor, and a Woman of Color who has spent over 20 years inside the very systems she now helps others navigate. She has led organizations, built programs from the ground up, and sat in rooms where she had to fight, quietly or loudly, to be taken seriously.
As a tenured professor, Nicole works inside the academy every day. When she coaches faculty, Nicole is not speaking from the outside. She is speaking from experience. As Nicole knows, the rules are different when you’re a woman. The game often feels different when you’re a Woman of Color.
Through executive coaching, leadership development, speaking, and consulting, Nicole partners with women, especially Women of Color, who are doing meaningful work in environments that don’t always make space for them. She also partners with higher education institutions ready to invest in their people.
Her approach is identity-affirming, strength-based, and unapologetically human. Nicole holds a Ph.D. in Counselor Education, an M.A. in Counseling, and a B.A. in Psychology, along with professional certifications in coaching and intercultural development. But more than credentials, Nicole brings lived experience and a genuine commitment to each of her client’s growth.
Whether you’re a leader navigating your next chapter, a faculty member in the thick of academic life, or an organization ready to do the real work, Nicole’s goal is the same: to help you lead with clarity, courage, and a deeper sense of who you actually are.
Welcome to the Brave Women at Work podcast. This is your host, Jen Pestikas. I’m so glad you’re here.
Well hey everyone, how are you doing out there? Hope you’ve been really well since last week and I want to let you know that I have been schooled in the very best way today. I learned something so valuable during my conversation with my guest Nicole Pulliam.
And so let’s start here. You know how everyone, including me, I’m raising my hand over here has referenced imposter syndrome. I have been working on this podcast for five years, I think it’s five years or even longer, and been in this work for years and years and years. And I have been using the term imposter syndrome. And it’s a syndrome. That’s what I thought it was. So what if the original researchers on the topic of what I thought was imposter syndrome, these researchers never intended for it to be called a syndrome. What if it was really called imposter phenomenon.
So we could do a whole podcast on why, you know, what are what is the underlying goal of calling it a syndrome. We could do a whole podcast on that. But the gist is with a syndrome, if you think about it, imposter syndrome, we tend to blame ourselves. I know I do, I know I have. And we think we’re inherently wrong or bad because we have a syndrome. It sounds like an illness. So with imposter phenomenon, think about that, phenomenon. I don’t feel as closely tied to it. So we take the idea of the imposter outside of ourselves and into the environment. So what in the environment triggered us to feel like an imposter in the first place? And what can we do about it? So I just have to tell you this conversation was like mind blown. And you’re gonna see me revise some of my freebies and like my work and things like that to reflect the correct term of imposter phenomenon rather than imposter syndrome.
So during today’s show, Nicole and I also chatted about the back story behind her work with her company Real and Worthy. Of course we did that whole jaunt on what imposter phenomenon is and how it really is different than imposter syndrome. What does it mean to lead in a system that wasn’t built for you? And how does this specifically touch and is very difficult for women of color? What is the worthy leadership framework? And I gotta tell you it’s a beautiful PDF so please go grab it on the Real and Worthy website, Nicole’s website, which we’ll link in the show notes. And she has this really cool prompt called the I am worthy of prompt.
We often like I will say, okay, well I gotta do this thing, I gotta do this thing, I gotta do this thing, but I don’t think about what I’m worthy of, right? I think like oh I’ll be worthy of this or that once I finish the thing. I love this conversation because it’s not about that. It’s about like I’m worthy right now. I’m worthy of rest. I’m worthy of joy. I’m worthy of fun. I’m worthy of taking time to listen to this show. What are you worthy of? So we have a prompt that we’re going to link up also in the show notes. So if you’ve beaten yourself up regarding imposter used to be syndrome but now phenomenon, I’m going to ask you to flip your brain inside out in the very best way possible with today’s show.
So here is more about Nicole. Nicole Pulliam is a first-generation trailblazer, a tenured professor, and a woman of color who has spent over 20 years inside the very systems she now helps others navigate. She has led organizations, built programs from the ground up, and sat in rooms where she had to fight quietly or loudly to be taken seriously. As a tenured professor, Nicole works inside the academy every day. When she coaches faculty, Nicole is not speaking from the outside. She is speaking from experience. As Nicole knows, the rules are different when you’re a woman. The game also often feels different when you’re a woman of color.
Through executive coaching, leadership development, speaking, and consulting, Nicole partners with women, especially women of color, who are doing meaningful work in environments that don’t always make space for them. She also partners with higher education institutions ready to invest in their people. Her approach is identity-affirming, strengths-based, and unapologetically human. Nicole holds a PhD in counselor education, an MA in counseling, and a BA in psychology, along with professional certificates in coaching and intercultural development. But more than credentials, Nicole brings lived experience and a genuine commitment to each of her clients’ growth. So whether you’re a leader navigating your next chapter, a faculty member in the thick of academic life, or an organization ready to do the real work, Nicole’s goal is the same. To help you lead with clarity, courage, and a deeper sense of who you actually are.
And I must say I was remiss she also has a book coming out in January of next year on all of these topics we talk we talked about also on the show, so listen in for that as well. And once she’s got that book out there, we’ll be sure to share the link so you can grab your copy wherever books are sold.
So before we begin, be sure to share this show, this one specifically or the entire collection of almost 300 episodes, I’m so humbled and excited to share that, with a family member, a friend, or a colleague. And if you haven’t left a rating and review and this has made kind of touched your heart or pushed you or challenged you or stretched you in any way, leave that rating and review in Apple Podcasts and then hit the plus sign to get the show in your regular podcast feed every Thursday.
Also if you haven’t downloaded one of the freebies from my website, check them out at bravewomenatwork.com. So I’m gonna change this. I have five ways to what it used to be called managing imposter syndrome, it will now be called five ways to managing imposter phenomenon. 34 leadership and career affirmations and 10 tips to win your next negotiation. You can download one of them, all of them, use them at your own time, and they’re entirely free.
Also if you have a story to share and you’ve always wanted to be an author and you’re like, I want to share my story, and you have a deep desire to become that author, it’s on your bucket list, but you keep pushing it from year to year to year. We are building our cohort for Brave Women at Work: Lessons in Abundance and we have just like one spot left. So if you have any interest in learning more about that project and all the details, please contact me at hello@bravewomenatwork.com or you can connect with me on LinkedIn and I will send you a note there. So either way, hello@bravewomenatwork.com or LinkedIn, I will connect with you.
All right, let’s welcome Nicole to the show.
Well hello Nicole, welcome to Brave Women at Work, how are you today?
I am doing very well today. How about you?
I’m doing so well. Thank you so much for accommodating us, I know we had to kind of go back and forth, but like you said, that is what we do as busy women. So thanks again for being here.
Yes.
Yes, of course. So why don’t you tell us a little bit more about you and how you’ve gotten to where you are today?
Yes, absolutely. I’ll start with of course as many of your listeners and you included I wear many hats. I’ll start with what is the most near and dear to my heart and then I’ll work backwards. So I am a very proud mommy of two. An 11-year-old and a six soon to be seven-year-old in three weeks, he does not let me forget that. Professionally speaking I’ve worked in higher education in a variety of capacities for over 20 years now. For the past 13 years I’ve been a full-time professor and researcher. And for the past three and a half almost four years I’ve been an entrepreneur. A certified executive coach and consultant. So I’m still doing all of those things all at the same time and what I am most proud of is the way that I’ve been able to combine the work that I do as an educator and researcher with the work that I do as a coach and consultant. And this is midlife for me now. And it feels really good because it feels aligned. So I’ll talk a little bit more about all of the other work that I do, but in sum, that’s a bit about who I am.
So I get this question every week and I’m going to ask you the same question, is like how are you doing that, right? So people are like do you sleep? So the same question to you Nicole, do you sleep? How are you doing all that?
The answer to that question is yes. Now, that was not always the answer to that question. Now that I am in midlife and smack dab in perimenopause I have learned that I cannot do any of those things well, personally or professionally, unless I’m sleeping. So I really do take sleep and health and wellness seriously now and no longer view it as this optional thing to do. In fact, as soon as we finish recording I’m heading to the gym to get my Saturday morning workout in before I start my day, but I do sleep. Mostly because I now understand that my brain requires it. The level of creativity and just being there for other people and for myself, I do sleep and I know that’s probably not what many of your listeners would say. So if you’re not sleeping, we need to sleep.
I agree with that totally. So when we were prepping for the show several months back we were talking about imposter and I love that because you know corrected me, right? Because I’ve been using the good old term of imposter syndrome which I know makes you bristle versus imposter phenomenon. And I wanted to start by, okay, everyone’s got a different definition of what imposter is and then after that I want you to explain the difference between what we’ve always called imposter syndrome versus phenomenon. So let’s start with what an imposter means to you.
Yes. So personally, an imposter or what I like to call imposter feelings shows up as this really annoying, negative, nagging voice that seeps in when you are at a meeting, when you are about to do something you’ve never done before, every time we get the promotion, in my world every time I publish an article, and it’s the voices that say, for me this is how it sounds. Nicole, who do you think you are? And it’s a voice that puts us in our place if you will or attempts to put us in our place that shrinks us and that diminishes all that we’ve worked for. So there are feelings behind the imposter, but the imposter really is sort of the lies that society tells us, especially as women and in my work what I research and write on is especially for women of color that imposter syndrome is a lie. But the imposter is that nagging voice that in fact increases and gets louder the more we accomplish.
I know, isn’t that a bummer? Do you know what I mean like that’s just like the weirdest twist, right? You’d think that as we do more and accomplish more it would be less but it gets louder.
Gets louder.
Okay, so infuriating. So tell me the difference between because I think this is the key thing, right? If you guys take away one thing, talk to me about the difference between imposter syndrome versus imposter phenomenon.
Yes. So and in fact, I’m going to give you the difference and then I’m going to throw out an additional term that I have learned about over the past two to three years which I am now using. I didn’t create it but I want to share it with you and your listeners. So I’ll start with the imposter phenomenon because that term is a term that was coined back in the late 80s early 90s by two psychologists named Dr. Pauline Clance and Dr. Suzanne Imes. And they have two incredible seminal works that were published back then where they started to dig into and ask like what is happening with what they deemed high achieving women and why is it that these women, no matter the degrees, no matter the titles, no matter the promotions, continued to feel all of these imposter feelings like I’m not worthy or I only got here because of luck or I only accomplished this because of other people. So they as psychologists did some research and wrote some really cool books on what they deemed the imposter phenomenon, right? Like what’s going on in qualitative research that’s what I do it’s like a phenomenon is like what is happening here. So they dug into the research.
About six years ago I got really curious about that term and about that research mostly because I was feeling all of these things. I had a PhD, proud first-gen grad, tenured professor, you name it, so I got really curious. Fast forward, I applied for and I was awarded a grant to do some research on the imposter phenomenon and those experiences among first-generation college students who identify as Black and or Latinx. And as part of that study I wanted to use a pre-existing measurement that existed that came that was brought forth by those original psychologists. Well, in order for me to use that scale, that assessment, I had to seek their permission. And I thought, well first of all, I don’t even know like I don’t know them, where do I find them, so I did some research and I found contact information for Dr. Pauline Clance. Now as a researcher, I got really excited because I was kind of geeking out because she was the original researcher.
I’m excited for you!
Yeah, I was geeking out. So there was no phone number just an email. I sent multiple emails, never heard back, I was really bummed because while my research was qualitative, I was doing interviews, I really wanted to use this assessment to sort of add to my data. Finally, I received an email back a few months after from one of her assistants and she said Dr. Clance agreed she’d like to schedule a call. This was six years ago. I was geeking out and I said great. The conversation was lovely. Dr. Pauline Clance is at that time late 80s, just very kind, she told me a little bit about herself and she asked me about me and my research. And she said yes. Yes you can use this survey but she said on two conditions. She said first of all, the condition you’re already fulfilling is I was expanding their original research because their books and their research was only done the population, the data was surveyed by white women only. Now that wasn’t intentional, that just so happened to be, but she said thank you because you’re expanding this work to now look at the roles that race and ethnicity play in this conversation.
But she said the biggest condition is when you write this up for publication do not call it a syndrome. She said because we never called it that. She’s like I don’t know who started imposter syndrome, the term, but she said that is not ours. And there was something about and she said because when you call something a syndrome, it almost sounds like a sickness or like something that is wrong with us, something that we need to fix. And it was like she had dropped the mic, right? And I said wow. And that six years ago shifted the way I looked at that term and started to look at all of these other things that were going on. So the phenomenon, which was the original term, was hmm, something’s going on, particularly with women and particularly women who were deemed high achieving, however we want to define that. That’s the phenomenon. The third term that I want to throw out is a term that I just learned about three years ago called imposterization. Imposterization. I did not create that but now that grounds my coaching and consulting work and that was done I can share the article that was originally put out by two researchers called imposterization. And purely for the sake of your listeners having context, I want to give you a brief like this is what it is.
Okay.
So imposterization refers to the external policies, institutional practices, and interpersonal interactions that make or intend to make individuals question their intelligence, competence, or sense of belonging. So unlike imposter syndrome, which is an internal feeling of fraudulence, imposterization shifts the blame to the environment, highlighting systemic bias, microaggressions, and exclusive cultures. That’s what my work is about. I never had a name for it. And then three years ago there was an article that was put out that talked about imposterization. And now that’s what I’m using to ground all of my work because the feeling exists for so many of us, but without understanding the larger context of our environment for women, right? Add on race and ethnicity and social class and all of those other identities, we have to really stop and question why is it that we’re feeling this way. Not just what can I do to fix it, but what’s happening in the water that we swim in, right? That’s making us feel this way. So that’s another term I want to throw out to you because that’s really to me that’s what my work is about now.
It’s like groundbreaking though. So everyone like that’s listening, like send me a message if I use imposter syndrome moving forward, I’ll use phenomenon so that I’m like using I mean this is I need to be corrected, right? So like we’re using the original researcher term. We could have a whole other podcast on how and here I’m going into conspiracy theory, did patriarchy or like the system create like the word syndrome to like make us feel smaller. That’s a whole other podcast like you know we could just like riff on. But here’s something else I want to throw out to you because now I’m going down the rabbit hole with you. I’m geeking out with you. Is maybe imposterization, right if I’m saying that correctly, is maybe related so it’s not just a third term, it’s like that’s the kickoff, the catalyst, right is the system, the process, you’re actually explaining the process of how this actually works. So the system goes through imposterization, right? And as a result we feel imposter phenomenon. And so it’s a feeling yeah, it’s like it kind of like is a cascade, right? Versus a replacement or a different term or a replacement term for imposter phenomenon. What do you think about that?
Absolutely. You know, because I get this question a lot, and it’s a fair question, when I first, you know, started talking about this and leading workshops and really sort of, you know, what I like to call kind of flipping the script on it all, you know, I would get questions particularly from, you know again, women of color or first gen, you know, like women who were really like feeling all these things and they say, well, you know, are you saying that my feelings are just kind of made up, right? Or like or I could just tell myself, well don’t feel that way cause it’s really the system that’s doing this to you. And I have to really stop and think about that and because of that my work has expanded and I think it’s all of them. It’s the we can’t talk about the feelings without also talking about some of the catalyst, right? Some of the reasons why these things are happening and we have to give space to both of those, right? So for example in my coaching, I am able to provide that space for my clients to help them understand those feelings and work through those feelings, but what I like to say about my work is like it’s in context, right? It’s self and the systems in which we’re operating. We have to be able to look at both and understand them both. We can’t just say, but I feel this way and what are some things that I can do, that’s one part. The other part is what are you operating within, right? Like how do we learn to navigate environments, workplaces and so I think it’s all of them. I do feel strongly about not using the term syndrome because of like…
It’s like my fault. It’s like blame, right?
Yes. Yes. But I think it’s a and who knows, again, I’ve been trying to track down for six years who started that term. I have not found it yet.
Okay well I mean we’re gonna keep in touch anyway, but if you do, please let me know so we can geek out in another conversation.
And go find that person and be like, I don’t think so.
Exactly. So on your site you’re and you have I think you have a new site. So congratulations on a launch of a newer or new site.
Newer, yeah.
Newer, right. And there’s one thing that struck me is it says you’re leading in a system that wasn’t built for you, right? So the question for you is who was it built for? Was it you know because I have heard that men can feel imposter phenomenon. So like I’ve had men like in my workshops that will like pop on and stuff and go hey hey hey now, right because I thought for a long time it was just female, now it’s predominantly female, but men can feel it too. So when you say you’re leading in a system that wasn’t built for you, who was it built for?
Well, so any system, right? So workplace corporate environments, my spaces are primarily education, but as my work expands now to work with more corporate and HR offices, you know, when we look at, and again, this is a whole another conversation, but when we look at any context, any environments, any systems in which we’re working in, all of those systems are simply microcosms of our larger society. Right? So when we look at I’ll use education as an example because that’s my primary place and space, when we look at the history of education and especially higher education in this country, higher education was actually built for white middle-aged men who had money. Like that’s just that’s the reality of it, right? So when we look at any environments that we’re working within, it’s a microcosm of our larger society, right?
So when we look at social identities like women, you know, I mean you work in corporate, you know it better than I do, and while we have seen great strides made by women in education and corporate and stem and you know, it is still the unique challenges will always exist for women because fill in the blank, right? So when I say wasn’t built with you in mind or wasn’t designed for you, what I’m saying is it was not designed, like my primary clientele coaching wise are women of color. So it was not designed, it’s not set up in terms of the policies, in terms of the institutional practices, in terms of the ways that we’re expected to conduct ourselves interpersonally, we’re really looking at well what’s the dominant narrative here, right? Even, again this is separate, but I know you do a lot and I love the topic of authenticity, especially for women. But there’s this whole body of research now and what I’m looking into is yeah, but authenticity looks a little bit differently when you’re a woman and again, a woman of color because the rules are a bit different. We can’t be fully authentic because we are seen as fill in the blank, right? So when I say that, what I mean is historically speaking, the policies, the practices, the cultural expectations are not necessarily thinking about or designed for me, right? Someone looks like me.
True. It’s true. And you know, I mean if you were watching the video portion, right? Like I’m closer, right, as a Caucasian woman, but I will say, you know, in my last role I was the only VP female Caucasian for like 10 years, right? And so it does pose its own challenges for sure.
It definitely poses its own challenges for sure. One thing though that I’ve been realizing just as like a jaunt and then we’ll come back cause I really want to talk about the unique challenges for women of color. Because I would be remiss not to ask you that.
I find the farther I go up the corporate ladder which is really interesting. So even as a VP, right I felt like I had to kind of guard myself a little bit, even you know cause I was the only woman on the exec team 10 years, that kind of stuff. But as I’ve kind of eclipsed and gone more into C-suite territory, I find it’s required that I have to be more like really own my voice and be authentic because there’s just nowhere to hide. It’s like when I was in school I know this is so weird like why am I a podcaster and corporate all this I was a double foreign language major everyone fun what a fun fact. And so no one wanted to take like French four, you know 400. Like no one so it got to a point where I was like one-on-one with the professor so there was no like the dog ate my homework, I didn’t read like the French poetry, I didn’t diagram it, I didn’t you know, I had to, right? I had to cause I knew when I went to class I was with the professor there was no hiding. So it’s very interesting now as I’m in the C-suite, there just is no hiding anymore. So all of it’s on display, authenticity, my lack of authenticity, my imposter phenomenon, my lack of I mean it’s really interesting as you get closer and closer and closer man you better do the work because there’s no hiding.
Yeah.
So I just wanted for everyone to hear as you’re doing that, that’s one of the other reasons to listen to the show is we’re kind of feeding into you’re doing that personal work and through coaching, you know like Nicole’s work, my work, you need to do that self-reflection work because as you get higher up that line whether it’s in academia or in corporate, it does, you know there is like more of that mirror in your face of like what you need to work on.
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Yep.
Yeah. So let’s talk about now to the challenges of you know that women of color face because you have lived it, you continue to live it and so I wanted you to touch on that.
Yeah. You know I was thinking about this question earlier because there are just so many unique, I’ll call them unique experiences. Some of them challenges, some of them and you can probably understand like just you’re like a challenge but hmm, interesting, right? Like these there’s something going on here. You know, but I think from based not just based on my experiences, but those that I hear from my clients, those that I have most recently had a chance to read and I know you might, you know, I’ll talk a little bit about I have a book on this very topic coming out with women of color authors across higher ed, there were some common themes that came out. And one of them is you know the need to now this is this I didn’t make this term up this term exists, but the need to code switch in order to be deemed credible. And when I say code switch again, you can your listeners can look it up, that can be anything from you know the way we dress, the way we do our hair, how deeply passionate we can be versus being seen as the angry Black woman or the sassy Latina. Fun fact, my first semester of full-time teaching, that is exactly what came out in my teaching evaluations. Dr. Pulliam is a fair professor, but she’s a bit too sassy. And I thought, interesting.
Right? So this constant need, primarily and what I my work is mostly looking at in predominantly white spaces, right? Like I do a lot of my research focused on predominantly white institutions where we are in the minority in terms of numbers. Right? This constant not just feeling but need to be seen as closer to the dominant, right? And that could be something as simple as again, my hair is slicked back right now but I have very, very curly hair. And I remember in my 20s feeling like, and in many ways being sent the message that in order for me to be deemed professional, my hair could not be curly. Cause my hair is curly and pretty big and frizzy, right? So the need to show up in a certain way, right? Now I love wearing suits and high heels, that’s my thing, however, there is also enough out there and you know in conversations with clients and you know whoever that might be to say, if we don’t show up dressed in a certain way, we would just not be deemed professional. Where a colleague, male, white colleague can show up and teach his classes in dirty jeans and dirty sneakers and a t-shirt and it would not be blinked upon, right? So it’s these expectations that no matter what we do, we will never be seen as as credible, as professional, as fill in the blank, as our white peers, right? So there’s a gender component, there’s a racial component, so that’s number one.
The other thing that often happens is and we saw this happen around 2020, 2021 when we were in the middle of a pandemic in addition to what many call a racial reckoning. Where we saw many folks of color being offered positions and institutions trying to diversify their workforces and create diversity statements, and folks being hired, primarily people of color, being hired into positions to kind of clean up the mess but without any support. Without financial support, without really anyone to kind of help them figure out and navigate systems, right? So we are often placed into positions because we are qualified, but often placed in positions to be able to check a box. To say see, we hired our very first fill in the blank, right? To do this. Some of the other things that often come up is you know it’s this understanding and in fact the research on imposterization talks about it and they term this feelings of or having to show up as a grateful guest within an institution. Meaning when we challenge or question or sort of just raise concerns, there is this feeling of like well you should just be grateful that you’re here. Right? Like let me just and many of us have adopted this. I was guilty of this as well. Let me not ruffle too many feathers because I’m just grateful to be here. Right? So almost like we are a guest in someone’s home rather than being a valuable asset to that organization. Right? So again, and that’s rooted in all of the systemic biases.
So there are lots of things that have come up, right? Or just you know, cultural pieces. A lot of my authors talked about you know like different vernacular or language being used. Like you know you focus on language, right? It’s like almost like no we don’t do that here, right? It’s like we can’t be ourselves fully. And if we push a little bit too hard, then we’re deemed as a problem, right? And I’ve experienced that personally. But again, there’s tons of research out there that talks about it. I wrote a piece titled Worthy of More: Systemic Failures Faced by Women of Color in Higher Ed where I talk a little bit more about that. Where it’s like we can’t afford to be mediocre, right? Like excellence is like that’s the baseline for us because if we’re anything less, we’re not deemed as credible. So and again, that’s all rooted in some of the exclusionary systemic biases that exist and exist in any workplaces because it’s a microcosm.
You know it’s interesting, I’ve had these in my own way, not in the same way, but in my own way like where an evaluation will like you’re sassy or you know you’re too assertive or whatever. And I’m so thankful for like women like you and like all of the women out there that are rising and doing this work because if not, I mean what was your initial reaction when you had that sassy comment? Like I know what I would have done. I would have been like oh, oh you know I’m being too sassy. So I automatically go back to imposter syndrome and then I make myself smaller. And if I know it consciously or it’s like this micro decision, but it can ripple out in huge ways. So how did you feel when you first like saw the word like oh she’s too sassy on your performance evaluation?
You know, I think it brought up a variety of things. You know first of all if you sort of understand my realities and context, I think the very first thing that it made me do was doubt whether I belonged in the academy, right? So again, I’m a proud first-generation college grad. So I have a PhD now, but you’re talking to someone who had no plans to go to college at all. Mostly because no one in my family had and the expectation was that I simply go to work. So if you sort of trace my career and my academic journey to a 17-year-old girl with no plans to go to college, only applied because her high school counselor told her she needed to, to someone now with a PhD with a highly coveted tenure track faculty role. Getting huge. So seeing that on a performance evaluation my very first semester, coupled with the fact that I was pregnant with my first child, it was like all of these things that were making me question like the imposter syndrome says Nicole, who do you think you are? You’re not a tenured professor. Graduate level professor at that, I teach at the grad level, right? So then to see that, my immediate thought was I don’t belong here. What am I doing? Not so much, but this comes up for a lot of people, maybe they made a mistake on me. Right? So I felt it, but I think I was aware enough to also know here we go, right? Like that wasn’t my first rodeo. So I understood it enough as a person of color who had already navigated predominantly white spaces throughout my educational experiences to know. Now it was an anonymous, right? I didn’t know who wrote it, but I could almost guarantee you I knew. So but the feelings were there. And in that moment it shrunk me. In that moment it told me if you’re going to be a graduate level tenure track professor who wants to earn tenure, and the number of women of color, especially Latina, Black women who earn tenure and promotion by the way are very small, if you want to be that, then you can’t be you. And that was the message that I felt in the moment that I had to fight against. Which is really difficult to do because when we talk about alignment, we want to be able to do the things that we love and show up as who we really are in our work. But when people are telling – now the majority of my students they’re primarily white students, I can count on one to two fingers how many students of color I have in my classes. I could almost guarantee you that came from one of my white students, males in particular, who was very uncomfortable seeing me in a professor role. In fact, when I had first started 12 years ago, I probably looked younger than I do now, I don’t get questioned anymore. I’m like no one’s gonna question whether I’m the professor anymore. No one. But when I first started they did. Right? Now I would walk into my classrooms I had a suit on, I was wearing heels, sometimes my hair would be pushed back, but I was 12 years younger and you know, and I never forget there were two instances where I was brand new and students came in and they didn’t realize I was the professor. They asked, I forgot who that or I heard them asking, they assumed that I was not the professor. And I thought wow. Right? So like what does that do to all of these feelings like of course we’re feeling like we don’t belong cause you know so it’s like show up in a suit, wear heels, throw on that none of that matters because they were seeing me as through their own lens, right? Whether it was a you know now I’m also I’m very short, I’m a very tiny, I have a large presence but I’m 5 foot flat. If I throw a heel on maybe 5’3″ depending on how large my heel is, but they would question whether I was the professor.
You know what, so I have to say that I’ve experienced this as well. So two things. So for my Caucasian women out there, you can face it the opposite not like women of color, but I faced it two times that you’re saying that. So I had another white woman who had curly hair and I mean if everyone you’ve seen my the podcast you know imagery and stuff. I just love a bob. I’ve always loved a bob, it’s simple whatever, but I didn’t know that like this is the corporate haircut. Like you want to be in corporate as like a woman? Okay the bob, the straight bob, that’s the…
That’s a good bob though. I love a good bob. Not on me, I don’t have a bob face, but you do.
You know like okay, I was born with a bob face, you know what I mean? And she had curly hair and she’s like, you automatically fit the mold and I never thought about it. And it was a white it was a fellow white woman, right? Like who had told me and she had curly hair and she’s like I don’t I’m not gonna get the roles. I’m not gonna get like that you know okay I would push back on that as a coach but I can’t deny it either that I have the corporate haircut. So there’s that. And then the other one, speaking about ageism, I had one guy cause I’m from financial services and I’ll never forget this, I was interviewing him and I knew him so he felt a little too like familial with me, right? When I was interviewing him, he asked me and I was younger, right like we’re talking like probably 15 years ago, he goes how old are you? And I literally looked at him and I go old enough to handle you. Right? And so and so I was so frustrated though. Like would a man get that question, right? Like versus a woman get that question. So you’re kind of like bringing up the treasure trove of examples that I’ve faced in my career even as a white woman. So I want everyone to listen going like hey be on the watch for that stuff like that will make you feel smaller. And make a decision in that moment, yeah feel those feelings, right? Of I’m gonna throw out imposter syndrome, right? But understand that you might be in a system that’s imposterizing you, right? And then move to phenomenon versus like it being your fault.
Yes.
So because the price then could be too high, like the price of your job, the price of like your reputation. So like that is so, so valuable for women of color listening, I think there is some very good wisdom in there for all listeners listening in there. And you’ve kind of given me a new frame you know people people will come to me and be like, can you bring up blah blah blah. I mean basically what you’re telling me is like I’m the ally, right? They’re like I can’t, I can’t bring it up but can you bring it up? So now you’ve kind of helped me like reframe that in a new way so thank you. So let’s go to the book, I don’t know if you can share the title and when it’s gonna come out and where it will be, but I just want to share that out in the world on this show.
Yeah, thank you. So yes, I can share the title, it’s currently in press. So the title as as many academic publishing unfortunately a very long title. But the full title is Counter Narratives of Resistance for Women of Color in Higher Education: We Are Not Imposters. So the book really focuses on both the experiences of women of color across higher ed. Faculty, staff, C-suite leaders, graduate students, all women of color across the academy who are sharing their narratives, but the counter narrative is that we’re not just struggling like here are all of the amazing things that we’re adding to our organizations, that’s the first part. The second piece of the book that I am most excited about is I thought I don’t want to edit a book that just tells a story. I want there to be an accountability piece in there for institutions, for organizations to be able to look at and say, okay so now what do we do about this. So each chapter ends with a call to action. It’s a we are not imposters call to action. So each chapter based on that author’s experience authors offers calls to action for institutions. And I think while it is rooted in higher ed, it really could be looked at across industry because again, higher ed is just another business, right? It’s an industry. So it is currently in press, scheduled to come out January of 2027. I opted to not have it come out right before the holidays in December. So it will be out January 2027 through Emerald Publishing. It will be available on Amazon and through Emerald Publishing as well and of course I’ll do a lot of marketing on that, but I will say as an editor and I know you’ve edited now six going on seven books as well, it was such a beautiful and gut-wrenching experience at the same time because I knew what the stories were going to look like, you know, they submitted proposals, but I will say I found my story in so many of them and I felt sadness, anger, empowerment, like all wrapped up in one as I read each of the 12 chapters. So I knew it was going to be a beautiful project but I think it turned out to be even better than I imagined. So I’m really looking forward to that.
Let me know we’re going to be in touch so yeah let me know so we can share, share, share, share, share, right? Because I want people to get the book, I’m really excited for you. So pre-congratulations on the book. So before we wrap up here I want to kind of go through a couple things cause this is the foundational piece, so we’re gonna do a very quick run-through on this. So your company is called Real & Worthy and front and center you have the Worthy Leadership Framework. And there everyone we’re going to link it up in the show notes, you have this free worksheet that is awesome. Like it is so well thought out, I looked at all of the prompts, everything like that, so everyone please please go grab that because it’s very, very helpful. But why don’t you quickly kind of run through like what the framework is and then again everyone go get that because I think this will be super helpful as you’re waiting into the water of it’s not a syndrome, it’s a phenomenon, and doing the self-work you need to heal. So let’s talk about the framework.
Yeah, so the framework, so for the sake of time I won’t walk them through each. So each one of the letters is an acronym for something. The very first one is one that I’ll share because I already talked about it. And the W stands for witness. Meaning we have to be willing to sit and really witness and look at what’s really going on, both within our environment and within ourselves. So Worthy in general, the second part of the name of my company is really rooted in the belief that as women in particular, in order for us to thrive in our lives, not just professionally but also personally, we have to believe that we are worthy enough of thriving. We are worthy enough of living in abundance and living in alignment and all of the things. Because so many of us believe, maybe we’re confident and we can move in certain environments, but deep down that worthiness work is really difficult. And I know what I discovered for myself years ago and now in so many of my clients is we don’t ask for more. We don’t, and in many ways I like to use the word demand more. We don’t you know dare to dream bigger because deep down we don’t believe we’re worthy of it. Deep down we believe, and I was included in this and I still struggle, we believe that we should just be grateful for what we have. Isn’t that enough, right? So culturally speaking, that was part of my reality as well, right? So I say all the time I’m like PhD, I’m like I own a home, you know salary-wise me and my husband I’m like we make more than our parents would ever dream of. So shouldn’t that be enough? Right? So the worthiness piece is really I think a key part of both the framework and leadership as we navigate environments, but also just how we navigate life as women in general. So that framework is really rooted in like how do we move through those things to begin the deeper work. So that WORTHY was intentionally chosen as part of the name of my company because I think all of the things we’re talking about are rooted in worthiness. Period. For women. The Real is a play off of imposter syndrome or the imposter phenomenon. Meaning I’m not an imposter. I’m real, right? Like this is me, I’m not showing up as anyone else, right? I am real, I’m not fake, I’m not trying to be, I have earned every single thing that I have you know. So I chose both of those together because when I sat down to like think about I’m like what’s at the heart of my work? And it was both. It was we are not imposters, right? We have the receipts and in many ways I think a lot of us as women can say, even though we struggle to believe it, can say I have done this and this and this. And when we look at some of our peers, we’re like this is who we’re sizing our you know I’m like oh. And then the worthiness piece went together. I will say I’m actually in the process of revamping my full brand now. My current website that’s like a revamp ish that I did on my own, but it came up again and I brought that up to someone and they’re like I think you keep it. Because the way I spoke about it they’re like this is you. Cause I felt like people don’t understand it, but so that’s it. The real is the spin off of like we’re not imposters and the worthy is all of this work is rooted in worthiness. So they go hand in hand.
So okay, a marketer idea just cause I can’t help myself is maybe some sort of like little video because what you just shared is so impassioned, like you are obviously the living embodiment of Real & Worthy, but there needs to be something. I just couldn’t help myself. You need to have like some short video or something about like talking about it cause it just like comes through so strong.
Thank you. I receive that. Thank you. No problem.
Okay so, because I too, Nicole and I are like, we we have a lot in common, so we have to have some action orientation. So one thing I found on your Instagram that I wanted to bring forward here is you had a really cool journaling prompt and I love a good journal prompt. And I’d like everyone not while you’re driving obviously or listening to this show, but like maybe after, do some free writing, right? We’re not gonna come and find you but do some free writing. Grab a piece of paper or your notes app on your phone, do this writing prompt for 5 to 10 minutes and try to like let that imposter voice just like let it park if you can, right? Because you might feel like well I’m not deserving, I don’t have time, I don’t I don’t have 10 minutes, like women do that, right? I’m gonna go and play Barbies after this, right? So I will just tell you, take the time. So the prompt is “I am worthy of” and then whatever you want to put. I am worthy of traveling. I am worthy of taking a weekend by myself. I am worthy of a promotion. Whatever it is, I am worthy of more, right? Just let it keep kind of flowing through. And I love I would love this, I know you would love this. Tag us. Like so if you get like an aha, tag us on social media like so we can celebrate that you came up with like a realization or just something fun. Please, please do this, I think this would be a great kind of primer like that starting point to, you know, then going and doing the framework worksheet. So Nicole, do you have anything to share on that?
Yes. Thank you for bringing that up, I love that. And I did a little bit of this on LinkedIn and I it brought me joy reading people’s, you know, and some women were like worthy of everything, which is great, but I’m like I want you to get more specific than that, right? Yes, we are worthy of everything, but what is it for you? So for me mine, I mean lots of it, but what comes to mind always for me is as an overthinker, someone who has burnt out in the past, I am worthy of peace. Not overthinking, not overdoing, just being in a state of peace. So that’s where I am right now.
Ooh, I like that one. How about you? I am worthy of really embodying my full self.
That’s what came up when you asked me.
Is like not sugarcoating, you know how like we say when you said in the review it was like oh you’re too sassy. I’m still in a process of kind of like taking off the armor, right? Like you love suits, I find now and maybe it’s because I’ve done it for so long, it’s not my jam anymore. So like I told I have a couple of friends that like I’m like you know what can we light my suits on fire? Like I mean I’m not kidding like so I’m kind of going through this like metamorphosis, like a butterfly, of like what is my new style, right? Suits are your jam and I mean I can tell it’s you, but for me I just I’m not feeling it anymore. So really feeling into me without apology is like what I am.
Oh, I love that. I’m smiling too because I know one day suits will no longer be my jam. I already know what my style will be when I retire and I’m not wearing suits and heels anymore. I love a good boho chic flowy skirt, like give me all the boho. I’m leaving my hair out and flowy. That’s gonna be my retirement look.
Love it, I love it. So you guys didn’t know you were gonna get all the fashion tips in here too anyway. Okay, so what would you say are one to two ways, we’ve done a lot of work on this, but you know just to kind of endcap us, what do they call it in academia? The capstone, right? So what are one to two ways that you believe women can be braver at work today?
I really believe, you know, in context, right? But setting that aside, I really believe that we show up as ourselves. That we really not like don’t shrink, be you, right? Like people will either love it or hate it and most people won’t even give a crap, right? Just be you, be you. There’s Arlan Hamilton, she’s a famous investor, author, and I have a shirt that says, “Be you so that the people who need you can find you.” Right? Like people need to see you. No one else. So that’s that’s the biggest way. The other thing that I will say again as an overthinker and someone who always has burnout tendencies but who has stopped burning themselves out, like just learn to experience joy. One of my close girlfriends and I were now talking about the importance of play in midlife. Like just playing. So now her and I, because of her I’m getting back into Legos. I’m doing all these like Lego, they have botanicals now, so it’s like.
Yes, with the flowers!
My husband bought me one for our anniversary, instead of real flowers he bought me a set. So I’m working on that now. Just play, just be. Or play Barbies with your daughter like just let it like let it go, right? Let’s not take all of life so seriously, just have fun.
Oh that is so fun. I love that one. Okay, so we’re gonna do all the links in the show notes, but how can women connect with you and your work online?
Yes. So I’m very active on LinkedIn, so you can find me there. Nicole Pulliam PhD. You can find me on my website, Real and Worthy, actually I shifted that, you can get there realandworthyllc.com or nicolepulliam.com. I claimed that, someone let it go and I claimed it right away! So nicolepulliam.com, you can find me there. I’m on Instagram but not as active there, but definitely LinkedIn and on my website.
How fun was this conversation. Thank you so much for being here today.
Thank you.
Well that’s a wrap on my discussion with Nicole today. I hope you found our conversation both valuable and inspiring.
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Until next time, show up, lead despite imposter phenomenon, and be brave.
