I love a good story. I started from one place and made my way up to the top story, and this is what I have for you today with my guest, Kelly Hiller. Kelly’s story is unique because she has been with Purdue University and Purdue Alumni Association a combined total of over 20 years! You do not hear that very often. We often hear that the employee had to leave an organization to find their next opportunity. What if you could craft it for yourself inside one organization? And better yet, what if you had the guts to let everyone know that you were the replacement and that they didn’t need to recruit to fill the role? That takes bravery and guts, and Kelly’s story inspired me deeply.

During our conversation, we also chatted about:

1. What it was like for Kelly to transition to the Chief Marketing Officer at Purdue University. 
2. How she set clear boundaries with management regarding how she was different than her predecessor, so they know what they were getting right up front.
3. How she continually works to build relationships within her team, including having a one-on-one meeting with every person in her group once per year.
4. How Kelly has navigated Imposter Phenomenon as she has ascended to higher roles in leadership.
5. What perceptions Kelly and her female-leadership team have faced.
6. And so much more.

One thing among many that I love about Kelly is her refreshing honesty. It was obvious that she is authentic, and I believe that this is a sign of a true leader. Listen in for real leadership talk!

 

I’m Right Here: Bet on Yourself with Kelly Hiller

I love a good story. I started from one place and made my way up to the top story, and this is what I have for you today with my guest, Kelly Hiller. Kelly’s story is unique because she has been with Purdue University and Purdue Alumni Association a combined total of over 20 years! You do not hear that very often. We often hear that the employee had to leave an organization to find their next opportunity. What if you could craft it for yourself inside one organization? And better yet, what if you had the guts to let everyone know that you were the replacement and that they didn’t need to recruit to fill the role? That takes bravery and guts, and Kelly’s story inspired me deeply.

During our conversation, we also chatted about:

1. What it was like for Kelly to transition to the Chief Marketing Officer at Purdue University. 
2. How she set clear boundaries with management regarding how she was different than her predecessor, so they know what they were getting right up front.
3. How she continually works to build relationships within her team, including having a one-on-one meeting with every person in her group once per year.
4. How Kelly has navigated Imposter Phenomenon as she has ascended to higher roles in leadership.
5. What perceptions Kelly and her female-leadership team have faced.
6. And so much more.

One thing among many that I love about Kelly is her refreshing honesty. It was obvious that she is authentic, and I believe that this is a sign of a true leader. Listen in for real leadership talk!

Important Links

• • • • • • • • Hello@bravewomenatwork.com
              • Brave Women at Work on Apple Podcasts
              • Brave Women at Work on Spotify
              • Brave Women at Work website
              • Kelly’s LinkedIn

About Kelly Hiller

Kelly Hiller is Chief Marketing Officer at Purdue University, where she leads the marketing strategy, brand, creative, and social teams responsible for bringing the Purdue University and Purdue Global brands to life. Overseeing a full-service in-house agency, she drives initiatives that build reputation, generate demand, and tell compelling stories across digital, social, content, and live experiences. A passionate advocate for community impact and leadership, Kelly also serves on her local school board. 

Welcome to the Brave Women at Work podcast. This is your host, Jen Pestikas. I’m so glad you’re here.

Well, I love a good story, I started from one place and made my way up to the top of the mountain story, and this is what I have for you today with my guest, Kelly Hiller. Kelly’s story is unique because she has been with Purdue University and Purdue Alumni Association, one or the other, for a combined total of over 20 years in her career. And you don’t hear that very often. When I’ve interviewed people or even thought about my own corporate past history, we hear about employees that they had to leave an organization to find their next opportunity.

So the question here and in Kelly’s story is, what if you could craft it for yourself, this really rich career inside one larger organization? And better yet, what if you had the guts to let everyone know that you were the replacement and that they didn’t need to recruit to fill that top leadership role? That takes bravery and moxie, and Kelly’s story inspired me so deeply, and I knew I had to share it with all of you Brave Women at Work listeners.

So during my conversation with Kelly, we also chatted about what was it like for her to transition to that Chief Marketing Officer role at Purdue University. And she was working with folks as her peers and then all of a sudden, she was growing and growing and growing and became the CMO. So what was it like to make that transition? Because I know so many of you will probably make that same transition from peer to manager, and that’s a big ocean to cross.

How she set clear boundaries with management regarding how she was different than her predecessor, the former CMO, so that they knew what they were getting right up front. They knew what they needed, and it also took her off the hook. She wasn’t trying to be like someone else, she was trying to be like Kelly, a different type of leader. How she continually works to build relationships within her team, whether it’s her immediate team or her extended team, including having a one-on-one meeting with every person in her group once per year.

How Kelly has navigated imposter phenomenon as she has ascended into higher roles in leadership. And here’s something that was so human about her response to this is she’s like, I still face it. So even if she’s a CMO or if you are ahead of a company or what have you, you still face that imposter feeling. So it was really great for her to open up and share and be vulnerable there. What perceptions Kelly and her female leadership team have faced and how they’ve navigated that. And just so much more.

One thing among many that I loved about getting to know Kelly and learning from her is her refreshing honesty. It was so obvious that she is super authentic, which is my people. So I loved the authentic talk, and I believe this is a sign, this is my opinion, of a true leader. So listen in for authenticity, for honesty, and for real leadership talk on today’s show.

So here is more about Kelly. Kelly Hiller is the Chief Marketing Officer at Purdue University, where she leads the marketing strategy, brand, creative, and social teams responsible for bringing the Purdue University and Purdue Global brands to life. Overseeing a full-service in-house agency, she builds initiatives that build reputation, generate demand, and tell compelling stories across digital, social, content, and live experiences. A passionate advocate for community impact and leadership, Kelly also serves on her local school board.

So before we begin, please be sure to share the show with a family member, a friend, or a colleague. And as you know, those ratings and reviews, they help the show get in the hands of more listeners just like you. And it helps the show continue to grow. And it’s really, really growing lately, so I thank you for spreading the good word. And of course, if you can leave a rating and review in Apple Podcasts, you can do that by just hitting the stars. Would love some five stars, not going to lie. You can also put comments. And then hit the plus sign so you can get the show in your pod feed every Thursday morning.

Also, if you haven’t downloaded one of the freebies from my site, check them out at bravewomenatwork.com. I have five ways to managing imposter phenomenon, 34 leadership and career affirmations, and 10 tips to winning your next negotiation. You can download one of them or all three of them like I said, totally for free. Who doesn’t love free?

And then lastly, I have never mentioned this I don’t think on the show, but I wanted to let you know, your lady, your gal here has a second business that’s probably just been under wraps forever. So if you are a budding business owner and you need help with your own brand, you need help with your logo design, your brand identity, your website, all that stuff, this is one of the ways I decided within the last year or two to help women just like you grow those side hustles. So I have a separate website, Brave Women at Work is still there, but I have a secondary website called amplifiwomen.com. So amplifi with an I, women.com. And it is a boutique marketing agency for female authors and entrepreneurs because I want to help you get your voice into the world. So if you’re building a side hustle and you need help, you can contact me at hello@bravewomenatwork.com. It all goes to the same person and I would love to chat with you about your budding business dream. Would love to get that entrepreneurial dream out into the world.

All right, let’s welcome Kelly to the show.

Well hello Kelly, welcome to Brave Women at Work, how are you today?

I’m doing great, thank you. Thanks for having me.

Of course, of course. So why don’t you jump on in, and I know this is a big question, but tell us about you and how you’ve gotten to where you are.

Sure, so I fell in love with higher education early. Right out of college, had my marketing degree, wasn’t quite sure what sector I wanted to work in. I’d been in finance, I knew that wasn’t for me, and took a job with Ivy Tech Community College and that’s really where I fell in love with higher ed. I will never forget the feeling of attending my first graduation and seeing the impact this moment has on students and on families. And really from then on out was looking at other places on occasion, but nothing fills my cup like higher ed. So worked at Ivy Tech in the Central Indiana location for a few years, and then a colleague that I had worked with at Ivy Tech had moved on to a position at Purdue, reached out to me, and said, do we have an opening here in the central marketing department at Purdue University, I think it would be great for you. And at that time it was also a good point in life to reconsider. We were living in Indianapolis, and all of our family lives around the Purdue University area, and we had two little ones. So the idea of moving back home and having some additional support network was very appealing. So interviewed, took the job at Purdue, worked at Central Marketing for a couple of years, and then transitioned to the Purdue Alumni Association.

And I think that was definitely the time of greatest professional growth in my career. I went from an individual contributor to a middle manager, to a leader. And that was also a time which makes me sound old, websites were becoming a consistent function. Social media was coming online, email marketing was happening. So it was a great time of change as well as progression and growth for me. And then after about 10 years at the Alumni Association, it again was time for a new challenge. I wanted to explore some different parts of the university and an opportunity popped up to lead marketing for Purdue’s Sesquicentennial. And I felt that was a great option to do something that I would never get another chance at, really be a part of a legacy moment at Purdue. So took that opportunity knowing there wasn’t a plan B at the time, that at the end of that assignment, I literally signed paperwork that said I’d be terminated on October 31st, 2019, because it was a special assignment.

Oh wow.

Okay. And I felt at that time that well I’ve been here a long time, I didn’t feel I’d end up on the curb, I’d end up somewhere and we’d see where fate took it. Is it time to maybe pursue something different, something outside of Purdue, or would another opportunity surface. And it surfaced indeed. So during my time on the 150th, our president Mitch Daniels made some big changes in central marketing. Because quite honestly I probably wouldn’t have opted to come back to central marketing. It was a very different management style, a different focus that I didn’t think quite aligned with my skill set and my career ambitions. But he hired Dan Hasler to come in and really overhaul the marketing function and make that department more of a brand marketing unit. And he also then Dan went on to hire Ethan Braden. And the combination of those two, which I learned a great deal from, really changed the trajectory of that department, the type of work, how it was done, the functions of the team, the innovation of the team. And so made it into something that I wanted to be a part of.

So towards the end of my assignment, you start having those what’s next conversations. And I sat down with Ethan and he asked do you feel you lean more into the strategy realm or more into the creative and operations realm. And at that point I really felt creative and operations was my strong suit. There was a lot of things he wanted to tackle from an organizational structure perspective, and I felt I could bring a valuable perspective there. And I also had been used to being involved in the creative process and understood that process. And I also do enjoy process, as a part of where I lean in. So took the position of overseeing creative and operations and did that for five or six years until Ethan departed. And then that’s when I moved into my current role, which will be three years this December, moving into Chief Marketing Officer of Purdue University. And it’s been a wild but fun ride, still learning a lot every day. Change is constant and that makes me ambitious, fills my cup, keeps me hungry. I joke with people when I’m doing interviews that don’t mistake my 22 years at Purdue for a lack of ambition, because that doesn’t exist. I’m a very ambitious person, but I’ve just been very fortunate in that I’ve continued to be challenged, had new opportunities, been able to explore new things. So the work hasn’t felt stale yet, I haven’t felt I’ve hit the ceiling, and still a lot more to accomplish.

Well congratulations on that huge arc in your career. 22 years. That’s huge. And it’s very rare. I don’t hear, when I’ve interviewed multiple, almost 300 episodes, I have not interviewed many women that can say they’ve been at one institution for 22 years, such as esteemed as Purdue University, and one that my family loves, I’m from Indiana, so I have to say boiler up on the show, even though I’m an IU girl, I have to say it. But I wanted to ask you because people may be wondering, when you transcend, you talked about the career arc from coworker and colleague to manager, leader, and now you’re the C-suite CMO leader. What was that like? How did you bridge that gap? Because when we were talking before we hit record, it is a difficult moat to cross sometimes. And so I wanted to understand how you transcended those gaps from coworker, manager, and then leader, and then C-suite leader.

It definitely is a challenging and I think you have to be intentional about your strategy really from the beginning and setting a strong foundation. And one of the reasons I am still at Purdue is because of the people. Really great people work here. I enjoy the people I work with, they’re good humans. They wake up with the same fire and fuel that I do every day to serve this place that we all hold so near and dear to our hearts. And I agree with you, sometimes you don’t realize how special that is until you see the other side of it. We’ve hosted a few other universities here to come learn about our department and what we’ve accomplished, and it always blows my mind that when we show up at a presentation, I don’t mandate to people everybody dress in Purdue colors, everybody wear your Purdue gear, that’s not how it goes. But people do it naturally because of an affinity for the place. And people will always remark, our team doesn’t do that. It’s something that does have to be forced. And so I think that says a lot about how much people buy in and love the brand. And clearly I’ve done that.

And so through the progression, I think it starts with a really strong foundation. Probably fundamentally being kind, being collaborative, treating people like you want to be treated starts really early in your career. Being helpful, being resourceful, trying to bring solutions forward instead of problems are all really important things in building your personal brand, which goes hand in hand with your reputation. How do I want to be known across the university. When people think of Kelly Hiller, what words do I want to come to mind. And I want things like collaborative, solutions-oriented, hard worker, dependable, all of those things to come to mind. But it’s on me to make that happen. My actions, my words, all of those things build that reputation over time. And so that’s something I’ve been really intentional about, while being authentic to who I am, that is very important as well. So as I’ve progressed, there have been times where I have made decisions about how does my personal brand evolve, how do I show up. Whether that be in my attitude, in the practices I put in place, how I dress and present myself, what does my social media presence look like. All of those things for me are pretty intentional. How I show up, for example, making sure if I schedule a meeting, I come with a clear agenda, I come with talking points. So a lot of it is for me being prepared for the moment and continuing to demonstrate that.

Now over time I think where this gets probably the most challenging is in the friendship space. When you are a peer with someone and your friends, and that’s important at work, you spend a lot of time at work, so you want to have positive relationships. Friendships are a bonus when it comes to the work environment. But then when you go from a peer and a friend to a supervisor, is definitely a tricky place. It’s hard to navigate. And in those moments I have felt that it’s best to embrace the awkward. Don’t pretend it doesn’t exist, acknowledge that this is going to be a shift, and try to openly set some new boundaries, what is this going to look like for us. I can still be your friend, and I still want to be your friend, but there are moments where I am going to have to operate in a supervisor capacity. We are going to have to tackle tough conversations together, and that’s okay. And so being up front about that early on and not pretending the awkwardness doesn’t exist, or the relationship shift didn’t happen. It’s calling the elephant out in the room and talking together of how are we going to navigate this new landscape. How are you feeling, what is on your mind of how this is going to impact you. And hearing from the other person as much as you’re thinking in your mind and vocalizing what dynamics likely need to shift as a part of this relationship, I think are really important.

And a lot of that comes down to good transparent communication, but being intentional about how you want to evolve as a leader. What do you want your personal brand to be. Defining your leadership style intentionally. Those are all really important things to keep in mind during the process, and keep in mind early. Because you build the reputation over time. It’s not something you flip a switch on. So if you come into a relationship where you’re okay this is my brand moving forward, this is my leadership style, and if that doesn’t match up with the equity that you’ve built in that relationship over time, it’s not going to work. You are going to be seen as a poser. They’re not who you are, what are you trying to do. This is not the person that I know. It’s not going to resonate and you’re not going to be seen as a genuine leader.

Oh there’s some really good nuggets everybody listening in there. So go back to that question alone, there’s some good stuff on understanding your brand, evolving your brand, understanding being intentional, your leadership style, building those good relationships early, and being transparent as those relationships change when you get to managerial. So that’s a good wrap for that one, but really think about those because there’s some really good nuggets there. So I don’t want to discount your CMO role and how you got there. I was very impressed with the story behind that because, and I’ve said this many times on the podcast, I was famous for this. I would put my head down, work really hard, and hope someone would see me. Hope someone would pick me. And you did the brave thing and you had a bold statement. So tell us the story of how you got to CMO because I think listeners need to hear that.

Sure, and I would say for a significant part of my career I had the same trait. Put my head down, work hard, others should notice. And I think that comes out of humility, that I don’t want to be a self-promoter, I want the work to speak for itself. And while those are really strong, admirable qualities, they don’t translate into the real world because everybody is busy, everybody is focused on a million different things. So as much as you would think particularly higher ups are thinking about you, they’re likely going to notice you, but they’re not thinking about you. And that’s a tough realization as a part of your career. And one I had early on that I realized in a realignment, there was a moment of which wow I didn’t get noticed. And I looked around the room and those who were more vocal, who were tooting their own horn strategically, were getting noticed and I wasn’t. And so it was a real pivotal hard lesson for me of no one is going to advocate for you like you are. And so obviously you have to be thoughtful about that. If you’re going to talk the talk, you have to walk the walk. You have to pick your moments, you can’t be an ongoing self-promoter, there’s a balance there of what is authentic and genuine versus what is seen as over the top, cocky, arrogant, boastful, those types of things. So it takes some really strong self-awareness. But I had been working hard, I had been working hard at building relationships within the department, looking for opportunities where I could weigh in, leverage my expertise, make change, bring solutions, not problems, those types of things. And so as my predecessor, there were some signs that he was maybe looking to move on, looking at what’s next. We started having some conversations to intentionally put me in some meetings and some conversations which are great exposure. I mean that’s succession planning. Is when you’re starting to plan for what’s next for people, what’s next for you. And so that part of it I felt was very natural and I appreciated it, I learned a lot throughout that process. But at the end of the day, the moment was mine to own. And I knew that. So when my boss put in his resignation, I was ready. I had the email typed up, I had been working on it for weeks.

Sorry my screen went crazy. There we go, you’re back. It totally flashed. That’s okay. We’ll cut that out, keep going. That’s okay. I’m trying to think where would be a good place to start. You had the email ready for weeks, start there.

All right. I had the email ready for weeks of what I was going to say and why I was making the case that I was right for this role. I made sure to back it up with data, of what were things that I had had a really pivotal role in moving the department forward. And also acknowledging the concerns that were likely going to arise with his departure. We as a department had been on a really strong trajectory. So many firsts, so many record-breaking moments, metrics, and so I needed to acknowledge that and make a promise that that wouldn’t stop. That we would continue on that trajectory, I was the person to do it. But also acknowledging, and this came more deeply in subsequent conversations, but that I was going to be a different type of leader and that was okay. This was not going to be a carbon copy situation. And so I put myself out there with the email, got myself the conversation. I sent that email to the president of the university. The essence of it was you don’t need to do a search, the right person is right here, and I’m ready to step up, and I think the team will step up behind me, and we’ll continue the great things we’re doing on behalf of Purdue University. And then in following conversations, those themes obviously I spoke to, but I wanted to be transparent that I was going to be a different type of leader. My predecessor was very much an extrovert, I am more of an introvert. So things like going to networking events, hosting dinners, or hosting things, that’s outside my comfort zone. It’s something I can do, but it’s something that doesn’t come naturally to me. It’s one of those things I psych myself up for, I go into it more strategically than something that flows naturally, which it flowed very naturally for him. He is a very eloquent speaker. I would not put myself in that bucket whatsoever. I’m comfortable speaking, but not as eloquent as he is when it comes to those moments. And so bringing those and having open conversations I think is important to understand from the president’s perspective, what can I expect out of you that’s maybe going to look and feel a little bit different. And so I wanted to set that stage early. So I definitely don’t regret putting myself out there. It was a bold move, it’s a risk, because it could have come back no. It could have played out that way. But luckily it didn’t, and so I feel very fortunate to have this opportunity, very, very honored, and it’s something I never take for granted.

I think it’s amazing and it’s a really cool lesson for women listening to go for it. Because you said, it was a risk, and you were pretty confident that you were going to get it, but if you wouldn’t, then you would have made a different decision. It’s input, it’s information. But they decided to give you that opportunity, and here you are three years later. The other thing I think is really showing self-awareness as a leader, and you have this undercurrent of transparency which I love and I really resonate with, is setting the boundaries early of who you are. Because going back to the comment on poser. I’m going to tell a quick story here. And this is not to be sad, this is truthful. I was younger in my career. My mentor actually passed away while he was working. He was pretty young, he passed away at 48, and it was unexpected. And I was pretty lost. I didn’t know they didn’t know what to do with the department, so I went to the CEO and I said, give me a shot. I was trembling. I was trembling when I told him. I know that I’m not this person, but give me a shot, let me do it. But for the longest time I really was a poser because I was trying to fit myself into the box of that person because I didn’t have the words to set the boundaries of I’m a different leader, I’m a different leadership style, all of that kind of stuff. And here’s the thing that’s very interesting. And kind of an AB testing, I didn’t end up getting the leadership job long-term. So I led the group and went through that, but because I didn’t set the boundaries, they didn’t see me as the leadership material at the end of the day in that scenario. I think I could have benefited from those boundaries to say hey I’m not this person, I’m this person, but I’m still a leader. So I think there’s a real lesson in that that I wanted to highlight.

 

No, I think that is a really valuable lesson. And I talk about it I was so confident, but there were still moments as I was, particularly in that first year, I would find myself comparing how I was doing the job to my predecessor Ethan, because he is such a dynamic personality. He’s a very inspiring person. I learned so much from him. And so I definitely would find moments, when I’m opening all-staff, he was one that could rally the troops and give the most inspirational speech, and I bring a different flavor. And being open with that and acknowledging it was important, but that doesn’t mean that I didn’t feel it or I didn’t have moments where I questioned I certainly didn’t get the reaction that Ethan often got, or I didn’t get the response. And so you still have those moments of questioning yourself or feeling today I didn’t measure up, I didn’t hit the mark he would have. And so you have to put that rule with yourself of no, I’m going to stop the comparison game. I’m going to chart my own path. And but that is ongoing, daily lessons to yourself. It’s not something, at least for me, that happened overnight. It definitely took time, building your confidence, and continuing to reinforce to yourself that I can still be successful and do this my way. But it is a practice, there’s no doubt about it.

Okay, so there’s real, and I’m going to skip ahead on the idea of imposter phenomenon or imposter syndrome here. Because going back to that same time frame, using a parallel example in my own life. I would let the imposter annihilate me sometimes. Where I would hide in my office. I would be defeated, where I let the wave of that self-doubt crash over me. Where it sounds like you had some tools in place to say hey it’s a daily practice, or I’m going to lead my way. Did you have any places that you learned that or was it within you? Curious about the tools you used to manage it since you’ve shared, thank you very much for vulnerably sharing, that there were days that were harder than others, that hey I didn’t do it as Ethan did, or I didn’t rally the troops as Ethan did. So how did you pick yourself up by your bootstraps and keep going?

Well I think it’s a few different ways. Seeking feedback from the team, and being honest of how did you feel about how I approached that. How did my perspective resonate with you. And then taking that feedback and either saying okay that was a hit, or okay that was a miss, I’m going to recalibrate and maybe approach that a little bit differently in the future. So I think it is being open to feedback and encouraging that candor so that you continue to grow as a leader, which is important no matter what. But I definitely had those moments of imposter syndrome and one of the things that really resonates with me from Brené Brown is if you look around a room and find a reason you don’t fit, you will always find a reason you don’t fit if you’re looking. And I have been very guilty of that at times, particularly if I’m in a room where maybe I’m the only female, or I’m the newest executive sitting around the table. It’s really easy to feel intimidated or you don’t fit. There’s times where I feel my personality is very different from the ones in the room, particularly in an academic setting, that maybe I’m not serious enough, or that I bring a different flavor to the conversation, and part of that is being a marketer in general. But you have to learn to embrace that. And I feel over time I have gotten more bold in those conversations. And I really feel this year particularly, that I’ve started to hit my stride. And I’ve also had some really strong advocates along my side who have encouraged me to speak up or in times where I have struggled to make space for my voice, have given me the floor. Because sometimes in conversations if you’re in a room and there’s some really commanding personalities, it’s hard to get a word in, or you get interrupted and you didn’t get your point made. And so I’ve really appreciated those folks who have been intentional about making space for me. And when you have a couple of those moments, it builds you up, and when someone says to another person, hey I want you to pause and let Kelly finish what she was saying, it makes deposits in your credibility bank as well in that moment when you are given the floor. So there’s lots of different dynamics in place. But the crux of it is, you have risen to this place in your career for a reason. And you do have a perspective to share. You do have expertise to share. And so walking that balance of when do you need to listen and when do you need to speak, I think that’s still really important. But I’ve come a long way I think in choosing my moments of when to speak up, what is the battle I want to fight, where the stake in the ground that I want to put in, when I want to really push on something, I think as you grow as a leader, those muscles get built, and I’m starting to see that. So it’s definitely been a journey, and there’s still moments where I find myself sweating out a little bit and being woo this is a spicy moment in this room. And but you also have the saying you got to fake it till you make it, and some moments you genuinely got to do that. You’ve got to approach that room and those conversations with purpose, with confidence, even if you’re feeling a train wreck on the inside.

I agree with that. I think it’s even more important for women. You’ve got to power through, and we’re a lot of times more emotional beings. So there’s more to regulate about yourself and how you show up in that moment. But it’s really, really important.

So one other thing I want to highlight and underscore here is the stakes in the ground, which I don’t know if we’ve really talked about on the podcast, but you said something very valuable there. And so I as a leader have what are the hills or the stakes you want to put in the ground. And there are times where I put too many stakes in the ground and you get a negative reputation because of the fact that people are man she’s argumentative, because she’s putting every stake in the ground. And I think for me it’s been hard, it’s been a grieving process to say, I am a C-suite member of an organization, it’s not my organization. It’s not Brave Women at Work. For you, it’s Purdue, you bleed the gold and black, you bleed the brand, you are the brand, you are the CMO of the brand studio. But at the end of the day, you have to decide okay what are the hills I’m really going to die on to preserve your energy. And so that was a lesson I’ve learned in the last couple of years is okay I can’t die on every hill, I can’t stake in the ground every time. So that’s something I’m still learning Kelly. So I wanted everyone to hear that because we’re all still in a learning process.

We are very much in a learning process. And I think it’s also that process is really hard because you put those stakes in the ground because it’s what you believe in, you’re leaning on your expertise, you’re leaning on your experience. And it’s super frustrating when others don’t acknowledge that, when they’re not seeing that in you. So I think that is what is that tendency to put a lot of stakes in the ground to be, come on, see me, hear me, I have valuable things to say, I am contributing to this business, I have expertise to bring to the table. But it definitely is more effective if you are focused on what are the stakes in the ground that I’m going to put that have the most consequences for Purdue University. Not the consequences for Kelly, not to advance my agenda, what is important for Purdue University that has real impact or consequence that needs to be considered. So it is tough. I think all of us struggle with those moments of an ego check, of okay, is my ego creeping in here or do I really believe this is what is best for Purdue. I mean all of us are human and have to have those conversations with ourselves from time to time.

No I think that’s very valuable advice there too. So speaking about that and you said this is more important than ever for females. Everything we’re talking about is obviously female leaning. I think that men that are listening will also benefit a lot from this, but let’s move towards, this is also unique. It’s unique in my business, I’m in financial services, you’re in academia, maybe it’s not as unique, but when you said that you lead an entirely female leadership team, my ears perked up, because that is not standard in my industry. So what perceptions have you navigated as a female, an entirely female leadership team, and how have you dealt with them?

Yeah, I mean in any scenario or any mix of people, there are dynamics that come into play. And I believe wholeheartedly in our leadership team. We have a group of incredible leaders. When I say leadership team I’ll define that a little bit. Those are my direct reports. So we have additional levels of leadership that do have male representation. But my direct reports are all female. And so as a part of that, I think we have to be a little bit more cognizant of how we navigate our relationships, how we portray ourselves in meetings. There’s it’s very easy for females to have the terms clicks get used, girl boss, all those things that absolutely make my skin crawl. Because again that goes back to the ethos of nobody sees the behind the scenes of leadership, which I think is why it can be such a lonely place sometimes. Of the extra hours you put in, the after hours, the weekend work. And it’s not that I’m a proponent of that, or that I necessarily expect that of my team, but there’s times when you are a leader at a certain level that naturally happens. And I see that out of my team members. And nobody a lot of times in those really tough moments, really tough conversations, there’s not an audience there that sees the care, the consideration, the different perspectives that you debate. And so you hope that people always assume good intentions, that they assume that you’re approaching every conversation with a level of care and multiple perspectives. But the reality is they don’t. And so as females, I think there definitely is a higher level of scrutiny. I have had several moments where I have been in a conversation or I have received feedback that I have to take a deep breath because it is in my head, you would have never asked Ethan that. You would have never pushed back to Ethan on that. You would have never put that label. And so I have to make those decisions in that moment of how do I respond, and I will say I’ve done it in a variety of ways depending on circumstance. Sometimes I have to take a more direct, curt response to establish I’m the leader, it’s my call. I’m accountable for it, if it’s the wrong call I’ll own it, but the buck stops here. And so I’m making this decision and I need you to get on board. So those moments happen. There’s other times where it can be more of a collaborative process or we talk through something a little bit more. But there definitely are perceptions and I would say attitudes that come into play when you have a female team and how you navigate that. Even I try to be very cognizant of making sure I work myself to try to talk to different people on all staff, to try to fight against that clique mentality or that there’s an in-group and an out-group, those things bubble up. And so I could pretend they don’t exist, which would probably be better for my mental health, or I can face them head-on and be okay this is my reality, these are the perceptions that I need to navigate, and it’s up to me as a leader to either turn a blind eye to it, or I can be intentional, and I want people to see that I am intentional, that I’m aware, but I also want them to see that I’m not going to waver either. I feel very strongly that the people I have reporting to me are in the right seats on the bus and they’re leading and they’re creating the quality of work that I expect. And I will have their backs, I’ll have the backs of other teammates. But it’s I think an ongoing struggle. The where I have found my greatest moments of probably defeat and frustration are in the decision making process. The questioning of a decision, the pushing back on a decision, or questioning my authority in a space. And I’m not saying I’m never wrong, I’ve definitely been wrong, and when I’m wrong I will own it. But there are times where I have a job that I’m paid to do, and I need to do it. So sometimes that’s making a decision that people don’t understand because they don’t have all the information, or doing something that maybe is not popular. But I have a different lens, and another great lesson I learned from my predecessor is sometimes we make calls on work that not everybody understands or agrees with, but if a trustee or the president or another executive leader sees something on our work that they take issue with or they’re didn’t you hear what I said, I’m the one that gets the phone call. I’m the one that gets the phone call. And then my leaders are the ones that get the phone calls. And so I always think that is a really important point to remember. It’s very easy to have a critical perspective when it sometimes comes to a decision, but two things can be true. Your perspective can be true, but the perspective of that leader can be very true as well, and that’s where the accountability lies is with that leader. So it’s tangled, it’s messy, but having a female leadership team, it definitely creates some challenges that I didn’t expect. And also females are wired differently. We have different emotional IQs, so that can come into play at times. I’m a person overall that’s wired not to be very sensitive, and we have members of our leadership team as well as our greater team that are more sensitive. And so that’s an ongoing thing for me is checking that. I have really thick skin, some people don’t. And I don’t say that to brag about myself, it’s the way I’m wired. It’s who I am, and not everybody is that. So I have to continue to remind myself that, or I can come across as insensitive, as not being inclusive in a conversation, or making a call and maybe not gathering all the inputs I have. So I think that we often don’t give our leaders enough grace. And I have been guilty of this too. From the outside perspective, it can look pretty easy. You get to make the calls, you get to do what you want to do. Really hard. And it is really hard. Because you’re weighing the objectives of the work, the needs of the institution, the priorities of the institution, against all the different people’s personalities of which I care deeply for, all of that at the same time. And so it is definitely not easy. People can be the greatest aspect of the job but they can be the most challenging, particularly if you’re in an environment where you do care about the people. You are invested in the culture. It brings complexities that I could have never imagined or predicted, that’s for sure.

That’s really, really good. And one last thing I wanted to tease from your answer is you said sometimes I take a deep breath and sometimes I’m curt in my answer. Do you have an instant filtering process, I need to learn this, because sometimes I think I might be curt when I need to take a deep breath and not take it personally because I might be on a sensitive meter probably a little more sensitive than you are. And so how do you filter that or does it come over experience and time?

I think it’s a little bit of experience and time, I think there’s a little bit of intuition that comes into play. But I think there is a lot of power in the pause, of pausing for a minute, and sometimes I’ll even say, I need a minute before I respond. Or I’m going to pause here for a second to gather my thoughts, take a deep breath, and think about either how I’m going to reply or say, I need to unpack this a little bit. So I am going to unpack this and I want to gather a few different perspectives and I’ll get back with you tomorrow or the end of the day or depending on whatever the situation may be. So I think it’s okay and giving yourself grace that you often as a leader are presented with some really complex moments. Especially in the personnel space, of which you need to be thoughtful, delicate, considerations of privacy all need to come into play. And so taking a minute to pause and thoughtfully choose your words is really important. Because once, and we’ve all had these moments of where something shoots out of your mouth and you’re I would like to take that back please. Can I have that back. I’ve done that a lot. And that’s not how it works. And we are all going to have those moments. But doing your best to minimize those I think is important and I really want to try to be as thoughtful as I can. So sometimes it is my intuition, my gut, I handle it in the moment or I say what I want to say in the moment. And there’s other times I thoughtfully walk it back a little bit, take a pause, gather my thoughts, gather other inputs if I need to do so, and then respond.

Okay, that makes sense. I love the powerful pause. That’s a lesson for me for sure rather than shotgunning with emotion. That’s a problem. Because you can really say things that you can’t take back. So speaking about that, and you said this is more important than ever for females. Everything we’re talking about is obviously female-leaning. I think that men that are listening will also benefit a lot from this. But let’s wrap this up by asking, what are one to two ways that you believe women can be braver at work today?

Oh wow, braver at work. I think a way you can be braver at work is in the decision making process. I have found that those who struggle with decision making really struggle to have the credibility of their team. So making the call, that’s what you’re paid to do, so if you hem haw around, if you are let’s gather more feedback, and you drag your feet, it’s exhausting and defeating for your team members. Whereas if you gather the inputs, you take in what you need to take in to make an informed decision, you make the decision, rarely is there a decision you can’t walk back or modify. So own that. Okay, this isn’t working, we need to pivot, why isn’t it working, and move forward is really important. So I think decision making for women is important. I also think it’s important for you to intentionally define your brand as a leader. What’s important to you, what are your non-negotiables, what are your virtues that you’re absolutely not going to waver on, how are you going to choose to show up for your team among other executive leaders and being intentional about that is really important because your reputation is driven how others perceive you. So thinking about how do I want to be perceived in these moments, you are going to have to be intentional about how you show up, how you conduct yourself, how do you respond, when do you weigh in, what solutions you provide, what data you provide, all of those things. So I would say decision making and personal branding I think definitely play into bravery and intentionality.

I think those are great. So how can women connect with you and all of the work with the Purdue Brand Studio or you online?

Sure, definitely follow me on LinkedIn. I try to maintain a pretty consistent drumbeat on there of not only I try to post at least once a week, but following others, learning from others, engaging with others, it’s a great community and way for me. So I would love as many follows so I can learn as much from you as maybe you can learn a few nuggets from me.

Well Kelly, thank you so much, it was really cool to see your name pop into my inbox at Purdue. I was of course, I have to represent Purdue on Brave Women at Work. This is the first time, so if anybody else from Purdue wants to be on I’m throwing out that lifeline for you all. But thank you for the work you do and for the wonderful information, advice, experience, and for your time today. It’s been very valuable to have you here, so thank you so much.

Thank you for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity.

Well that’s a wrap on my discussion with Kelly today. I hope you found our conversation both valuable and inspiring.

Here are two questions until next time.

• What can be your “I’m right here” moment? How can you get noticed and be the person, whatever that means?
• What is one way, either small or large, that you can bet on yourself right now?

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Until next time, show up, bet on yourself, and be brave.